AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[Theseus]

What about knocking it back to just one free tech? It would still represent a critical opportunity for catch-up, but wouldn't provide for locking the game up as we do now.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
Again, great ideas and a great discussion, but let's be conservative.

I agree 100% with this.

With the constraints of this mod, we may have to leave the Theory of Evolution as it is. We should not be trying to find "a solution at all costs".

Theseus, if you can come up with ideas to "nerf" ToE a bit without a major change in its nature and within the scope of what the editor makes possible, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear it. So far, we haven't had much luck coming up with ideas.

There's nothing wrong with putting this whole issue on the back burner for now.


Dominae

[Krill]

What about knocking it back to just one free tech? It would still represent a critical opportunity for catch-up, but wouldn't provide for locking the game up as we do now.

Not possible. You can have one free tech for a tech (if that makes sense), or two with a GW.
This was discussed ealier in th thread. 3 (or so) months ago

EDIT: Maybe we should as Dominae says.

[ZargonX]

With the constraints of this mod, we may have to leave the Theory of Evolution as it is. We should not be trying to find "a solution at all costs".

Agreed. Forcing a compromise solution that no one is really happy with is no solution at all.

[Ision]

Gentlemen,

How about a solution to ToE by making it 'STRONGER'. Give ToE a GL effect. Owner gets any advance already known by 2 other CIVs - obsolete with Corporation. Below is my rationale:

If you’re playing catch-up: it works. If you’re playing from far behind, no one can rationally argue with a Wonder that provides you with an instantaneous means of being at tech parity – this is far from being too severely ‘nerfed’. In some cases this new GL type ToE would actually be stronger than the present ToE. Imagine a game where you stumble into Industrial Age without the Middle Age optional techs – the new ToE would provide you with a far greater reward than previously.

If you’re at approximate tech parity (a little less - a little more) it would still provide you with some combination of the typical AI tech choices of Nationalism/Communism/Fascism and at times even Steam Power and Sanitation… this is far from useless (access to: riflemen, police stations, drafting, and alternative Govs, maybe even hospitals and railroads) – at the same time it will not work as a ‘catapult’ to Hoovers, or a game breaking 3 tech lead used to bankrupt the AIs, or a springboard to total tech ‘disparity’. The degree of ToEs value would then be directly tied to the degree of you’re ‘approximate tech parity’ when you nailed the wonder. In this sense the degree of its value is similar to the GL. In the best-case scenario you were slightly behind in tech – and gained Nationalsim/Communsim and 2 or 3 other techs – in the worst-case scenario it provides you with at least 2 free techs. In either case ToE would still be a highly valuable Wonder – while not so valued that you automatically choose to pursue it. The obsolete with ‘Corporation’ concept is to ensure that that ‘boost’ is more incremental in nature and less of the ‘game breaker’ than ToE is at the present. Also, by expiring with Industrialization, a ‘0 –research slider amass huge gold amounts strat’ will not go on deep into the Industrial era and thus over-power the Wonders value. Yes you can still beeline to Hoovers – but you will have to research your way there.

If you’re already the dominant CIV, ToE will allow you 2 different options ‘0 research slider’ or beeline x,y,z without worry. In either case, your dominance will simply become far more pervasive – however, is this not as it should be? This example assumed you were already dominant and just nailed a Great Wonder – in this context, the ‘game breaking’ aspect of ToE should be expected.

Assuming the typical game scenario of ‘approximate tech parity’ during the early Industrial Age, my solution is basically an attempt to have ToE provide 2 to 3 free techs NOT of your choice and that are already known to another CIV – while also ensuring that they are not merely 2 un-researched Middle Age optional techs.

Ision

[Ision]

Okay, let me say it before someone else does –

It is possible for the player, the AI, or both to have already researched up to Corporation prior to a ToE build and therefore gain – nothing. About as possible as my wining the Florida lottery – lol

The exact tech at which ToE should expire may or may not be Corporation – but I think you get the general idea of my post.

Ision

[ducki]

It's interesting and it also doesn't guarantee Hoover's.

[nbarclay]

I routinely research Corporation and beyond before building ToE when I have a significant tech lead because I'm waiting for AIs to research Medicine for me. I think I've even had a game or two where I researched Flight while building ToE.

I see two main gameplay issues with turning ToE into another Great Library. First, expiring it anywhere on the Combustion branch of the tech tree would tend to push players to research Atomic Theory and Electronics before researching the tech that causes the wonder to expire (while expiring it with Atomic Theory or Electronics could lead to extremely long delays in researching those techs). With Education, the tradeoff of having a wonder that gives free techs expire with a technology that provides a major research advantage is an interesting one. But no corresponding tradeoff exists in the industrial era.

And second, Great Library style wonders can, under the right conditions, be a lot more valuable captured than they can possibly be for a player that builds them. Unless the bug/quirk has been fixed, a civ that hasn't researched Education yet can capture the Great Library and get techs considerably beyond Education the next turn before the wonder becomes obsolete. The same phenomenon applied to ToE could catapult a civ from early indstrail all the way into the modern era. Unless that bug/quirk has been fixed, I think providing a way players could instantly catch up in tech that late in the game would be too powerful - and would undermine the importance of keeping up in tech as best possible through the course of the game.

Gameplay issues aside, there is also a major conceptual problem involved. Having the Great Library be a place that accumulates knowledge from throughout the world makes perfect sense, but ToE fits better conceptually as something that helps a civ in original research than as something that brings in techs learned by others.

The more I think about it, the more I think we haven't found a solution yet that has sufficiently clear and significant advantages to be worth changing the game for. Giving a library/university-style effect was an interesting idea, but would be too strong if players make ToE their top priority to be clearly preferable over the standard rules (and too radical a change to adopt in the absence of a clear and significant advantage). I think we should stick to the standard rules for ToE for the next revision of the mod and keep thinking about the issue.

Nathan

[alexman]

Time to vote. We have 48 hours:

Yes/No: Change the ToE so that it gives +50% science in every city until Computers/Rocketry (whichever comes first).

I'll vote later. I'm still thinking about whether the benefit in game play is worth the change.

[lockstep]

NO

I'm still hoping that Firaxis adds a 'yield one tech' option to the editor in a patch. For now, no changes to the ToE.

[alexman]

Another 'No' vote from me.

It's a big flavor change, but the real reason is that I think that the new research priorities for the AI will make it harder for the human to catch up by getting the ToE. I would like to play a few more games to see if that's true or not. I think we have not yet seen evidence of the AI getting the ToE in practice because in AU501 most players were already in the tech lead by the Industrial Age.

It's true that all for tech parity it will be easier for the human to get the ToE than for the AI, but that's life when you're the AI. Next time try to get a bigger head start!

[Dominae]

No. 50% Science in every city?! Sounds like a Modern era Wonder...

[ZargonX]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading over at CFC that ToE was being changed in the patch to produce 2 random techs for the builder. Any word on this as being confirmed or not?

[alexman]

I'm pretty sure that's wrong information, at least for 1.20.

[Theseus]

No.