AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[alexman]

Originally posted by nbarclay
The problem with making the wonder expire with Computers is that it would give the player with ToE a strong incentive to delay researching Computers because instead of providing a scientific advantage, Computers would provide a scientific disadvantage. I view that as a very bad thing.

As bad as having Education do the same thing to the Great Library?

Would it help if the Wonder expired with any one of two modern age techs? (The improvement expires with Fission, the Wonder with Computers, for example).

[alexman]

By the way, the removal of Radio in 1.18 doesn't make Advanced Flight required. I guess we could expire the Wonder with Flight and the improvement with Motorized Transportation, and that would pretty much cover the Industrial Age end techs.

[Risa]

I like the idea of "Obsoleted by Computer", which makes Computer another Education. Should I avoid Computer like hell, or should I beeline to it? That leads to hard and interesting strategical choice.

However, I'm not fond of granting new improvement idea, which seriously devalues Computer. If I've got the third research boosting building, why should I make it disappear and rebuild it manually (ie. research Computer and build research lab)? Sure I would lose mech infantry, but with TOW, it won't be a big problem.

I was about to suggest making the new improvement provide only 25% research boost, then I realized it can't be done in editor. I haven't got other ideas by now.

Other minor issues:
Won't adding new improvements require adding/changing files? Or it may and probably will lead to confusion.

I'm not sure how dummy resources work. Are they resources that will appear on not any terrain type? Thanks for anyone's answering. Though if I were to add unbuildable unit/improvement, I'd assign it to a "none era" tech.


Edit: cross-posts. Obsoleted by last two industrial techs seems acceptable.

[alexman]

We already have dummy resources in the AU mod to influence AI research. They are strategic resources with appearance ratio of zero.

Can you research a 'no era' technology? I'm not clear on that. I know that in 1.18 Radio is a 'no era' technology that they give to all civs from the start so that nobody researches it.

Adding an improvement doesn't require new files, as long as you use an existing graphic and civilopedia entry. We did this already for Communism (SPHQ) in the PTW version of the mod.

[ducki]

As bad as having Education do the same thing to the Great Library?

I don't see this as the same thing. The Great Library just links your effective research rate to the AIs as a whole.

The proposed Great Laboratory gives you free buildings as a booster to your own research.

I don't necessarily see Computers as a bad expiration date, I just don't see those as the same. I think a better parallel would be having the Temple of Artemis expire at Monotheism(when Cathedrals become available), but even that isn't the same, as we're creating our own special research lab improvement that isn't required for following improvements.

As I see it, we're trying to jury-rig our own implementation of the SGL's Golden Age of Science. As such, it should be a temporary boost, just like the SGL's GAS or a regular Golden Age. When you come down off that high, you are, in fact, coming down. It shouldn't be a steady upward curve that would be allowed by an expiration after Computers - that would extend the wonder's power too far IMO. Expiring before Computers - or even AT Computers - does not create a scientific disadvantage with Computers. Computers has not changed, it just happens to be the (proposed) trigger that ends your Darwinian Scientific Golden Age.

I see how it might be perceived as a disadvantage, but if the human chooses to forgo computers(and we should make sure that the research bonus for the Great Laboratory/Darwinian Science Age is less than the advantage of building real Research Labs everywhere) then that is his or her option. I'd have to double check, but I think there are some pretty big goodies that come after Computers in the tree and for the human to postpone those may not be as helpful as the Great Laboratory.


I like the name The Great Laborator, but if we have to figure out yet another GL acronym from context I might have to snap my C3 cd in half and nobody wants that. Well, maybe my wife.

Anyway, there should be a sense of "loss" or slowing when this wonder-induced Age of Science ends, just like a normal GA. It should feel temporary and fleeting.

[Risa]

Goodies in Computer branch are:
SETI, meaningful only in OCC or 5CC;
Mech Infantry, good unit, but TOW Infantry can take up its role to some extent;
Internet, basically the same thing as new ToE;
Offshore Platform, good addition, but far from necessary in most cities.
Cure for Cancer, now this may be the good and irreplacable one, yet still not must-have.

I'n not counting Robotics in. It's too deep in the tree.

[smellymummy]

that's right nbarclay, originally ToE gave the cheapest tech. its just somewhat ironic that back then we (well I certainly did) wanted the ToE more powerful, and now today it's the other way around.

as far as getting these free labs obsolete, i find it much different than the temple of artemis, where education is a path you have to take. You can avoid education for only so long. While computers, that can be avoided like the plague, and like its been pointed out TOW infantry make up for the lack of mech infantry. In fact you don't even need computers to win the game.

then having the free labs expire at the end of the industrial age is pretty much defining the research path for players. If my free labs are going to expire at motorized transport, then I'll keep the same research path I always take, sci method to electronics and then head into the upper branch.

I wonder though if the AI is even able to take 'made obsolete by' into consideration. for example, the AI has a tech lead to mass production, and just finishes building ToE, just because the AI likes to build wonders, and then a few turns later it researches the tech that makes the free labs obsolete.

[Risa]

Yes, AI in stock games likes beelining to Flight.
However, since AI's research preferences are "completely under control" in AU Mod, it shouldn't be a big problem.

Am I right, alexman?

[alexman]

Yes, Flight is about as valuable to the AI as Mass Production in the AU mod, but still twice as valuable as Motorized Transportation. Still, Flight is much less valuable than in stock, where it was about 14 times more likely to be researched than Mass Production.

What if the ToE becomes obsolete with Computers or Rocketry? That would leave you without Mech. Infantry, TOW Infantry, and Modern Armor (because of the Aluminum), if you try and keep the Wonder active, not to mention all the Spaceship requirements.

[jshelr]

If the idea proves too powerful, it can be toned down by making ToE have the same effect as a SGL by accelerating research for a set number of turns.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alexman

What if the ToE becomes obsolete with Computers or Rocketry? That would leave you without Mech. Infantry, TOW Infantry, and Modern Armor (because of the Aluminum), if you try and keep the Wonder active, not to mention all the Spaceship requirements.

The techs needed for Modern Armor would not be particularly affected because a player could research Ecology and Synthetic Fibers and then go back for Rocketry. The wonder would become obsolete only after the player gets the last of the three techs he needs to build MAs. (Granted, there is a catch to that route: the aluminum situation is revealed later than if Rocketry would be researched first.) Normally, I make Computers my first priority in the modern era because even if I want MAs quickly, I don't want to have to research three extra techs at the slower pre-research-lab pace. But just being slowed down for one tech (Computers itself at a slower pace because ToE became obsolete with Rocketry) would be a lot more acceptable.

From a space race perspective, a path of Fission, Nuclear Power, Recycling, Synthetic Fibers, Computers would have to be tempting, especially for communist civs. Under conventional governments, the cities with the highest raw research output are core cities that can generally build research labs relatively quickly, so the difference in research between operating with ToE and operating with research labs once the main cities finish them would be relatively small. (And a time lag while building labs will exist whether it comes sooner or later.) But communist civs, especially ones that have been expanding fairly aggressivey, are likely to have a larger portion of their research come from cities that can't get research labs up in a timely manner.

Nathan

[Buckets]

Originally posted by nbarclay In any case, my impression was that Recycling Centers only reduced pollution that results from production rather than eliminating it, in which case having a non-polluting power plant would still make a difference.

That's incorrect. The Recycling Center works like mass transit - reduces building pollution to 1, regardless of how much pollution is there to begin with. I think the more important point is that pollution of 2 is easily manageable with workers, so again, why bother with anything but coal plants? coal plant-160shields, hydro-240, solar-320! I get the feeling people are very used to getting hoover's...

Originally posted by nbarclay
That would certainly go a long way toward undercutting prebuilds, and I also like the idea for other reasons.

The cost of the palace is listed in the editor as '10' which means 100 shields. But apparently that value is dynamic based on empire size. Sorry to stray OT, but these are 2 things that may be worth looking at in another thead.

[Buckets]

If this proposed TOE became obsolete at Computers I would avoid computers as long as possible. Getting computers would be like suddenly scrapping all your free labs and then having to build them all over again to get back to square one. I think motorised transportation would be a better choice.

edit- who knows, maybe someone would actually research advanced flight or amphibious war before getting tanks!

[alexman]

Advanced Flight requires Motorized Transportation.

Also, to recap the parts of the thread you may have skipped, we are no longer considering making the TOE become obsolete by Computers, but by Rocketry as well. Either that, or by Motorized Transportation and Flight. So far anyway...

[smellymummy]

locking the player out of aluminum kind of makes sense, if they want to keep the free labs, its still not much of a detterent imo. I mean, all I have to do is build a few tank armies, and I'd be nearly as good as if i had MAs. computers has already been pointed out to be easily avoided as well, and I bet fission could just as easily be avoidable. as far as ecology is concerned, I don't think that would fit the bill

if I'd want to keep the free labs, then more than likely I'd be going for a domination or conquest victory, each and every game, and just research the modern techs that don't make my stuff obsolete.

too bad there isn't an earlier 'narrow' tech path so to say, to make free labs obsolete, like how education is to the temple of artemis