AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[ducki]

If the idea proves too powerful, it can be toned down by making ToE have the same effect as a SGL by accelerating research for a set number of turns.

I looked and looked and couldn't find this effect, which was why I posted all the other ideas for simulating this. Had I been able to find that one, I'd never have suggested the free Unis, the +50% research, the double research or any of that. Plus, we wouldn't have to muck about with expiration, since the SGL effect last, what? 20 turns? 25?

If it's available as a wonder effect, it is, IMO, far preferable to the jury-rigging we're going through to simulate it. I just didn't see it in there.

[nbarclay]

As long as obsolescence is tied to a mandatory industrial tech, we would probably do best having only one tech make the wonder obsolete. That would ensure that it has to become obsolete by the time players enter the modern era. That was my original idea: pick one of the terminal mandatory industrial techs, and when the player researches it to leave the era, the wonder becomes obsolete.

[smellymummy]

i dont believe its possible to make a wonder obsolete with 2 techs.

same thing with giving a wonder the SGL science bonus, not possible

[Risa]

Originally posted by smellymummy
i dont believe its possible to make a wonder obsolete with 2 techs.

Simple. One tech obsoletes the wonder, the other makes the virtual building outdated.

[Risa]

There is a narrow path, if we mark Advanced Flight as mandatory.

[Aqualung71]

Why don't we give a free SGL (or 2) with ToE?

This would be in keeping with the Science flavour of the wonder, and while you don't get the free techs, you have the opportunity of getting a temporary research boost (similar to the temporary Uni's/Labs being discussed above but without the "expires at...." problem). Or you can use it/them for wonder rushing (ie, Hoovers, or SETI/Internet/UN). There's no culture bonanza, so Nathan's war-monger issue goes away. In the unlikely event that the AI gets it, AI SGL's may be a frightening prospect for a human player at that stage of the game, if used properly.

[Risa]

The problem is, there isn't a seperate SGL unit in editor. The leader unit in it is MGL, IIRC.

[ducki]

i dont believe its possible to make a wonder obsolete with 2 techs.

The way I read the "2 tech" idea was:
Tech A makes Wonder Effect 1 obsolete.
Tech B makes Building 1 obsolete.

The Wonder grants free Building 1s in every city.
You can kill the end effect either by killing the building it gives or the wonder itself, effectively allowing the wonder to expire at either of 2 techs.

At least, that's how I read it, maybe I misunderstood.

[smellymummy]

i understand the 2 tech thing now, I didn't think non-wonders we're affected by this. very cool

[alexman]

Originally posted by nbarclay
As long as obsolescence is tied to a mandatory industrial tech, we would probably do best having only one tech make the wonder obsolete.

Why is avoiding one certain industrial age tech better than avoiding a modern age tech? Expire the Wonder with Motorized transportation and the ToE player will always go for Flight before Tanks. Expire it with Flight and he will always go for Tanks before planes. 'Always' is a bad thing for this mod.

By the way, I would prefer to keep Advanced Flight optional, just so you don't have to always research it.

[ducki]

Always is, indeed, a bad thing.
Like the human always beating the AI to ToE. Heck, the human always trying for ToE. I think we're getting too bogged down in a minor detail of our patchwork Science Age effect.

And I think I have a simple solution.

How many of us "always" build the UN, whether to finish early or to prevent a vote?

Expire the Great Laboratory with whichever tech allows the UN to be built.

Then I think we have an interesting strategic choice.
Keep the research boost and risk an AI Diplo win or prevent the AI diplo win and lose the research boost.

[vulture]

I think obsoleting the Great Lab with any modern era tech is too late. How many techs do we want the Lab to be worth? Keeping it as two, spread out over the industrial era seems unreasonable.

A civ with no science improvements has a base science output of X. A civ with libraries in every city has 1.5 X, a civ with universities everywhere has 2 X. A civ with the great Lab and unis everywhere has 2.5 X. So worst case scenario: a civ goes from producing say 400 beakers per turn to 500 beakers per turn (with fewer science improvements built, the jump will be bigger). Roughly speaking, that means getting 5 techs in the same time as you would have gotten 4. So if we aim for players getting roughly 10 techs before the Lab goes obsolete, then at the end of that time they are two techs ahead of where they would have been.

Assume that players still beeline for Sci method, and time a prebuild to get the wonder almost immediately. They will have steam power, medicine, electricity and scientific method at that point. The next ten techs can be replaceable parts, one optional tech (sanitation, ironclads, nationalism), atomic theory, electronics, industrialisation, corporation, refining, steel, combustion and mass production. Other optonal techs to be traded for. That currently leaves radio, flight, motorised transport as compulsory techs and advanced flight and amphib. warfare as optionals (subject to changes in the tech tree).

Say we make it obsolete with mass production (or motorised transportation). To get the best use of the wonder, the player has to get flight and radio first, but this delays getting to tanks. So the player can either take a two tech lead, get to tanks and go on the rampage, or get an extra few turns of tech lead from doing the other techs first, but possibly allowing the AI to get to tanks at about the same time as the player.

If we make the wonder obsolete on MT, then the player has the option of keeping the science benefits for a while longer, but having tanks from his last tech in the industrial era (very short window of opportunity there before mech inf come along), or going for tanks but losing the extra science earlier. And whichever path is chosen, the boost is going to be close to two techs (1.5->2.5), depending on how the player plays it.

Thoughts?

[alexman]

I have one comment: I like your analytical approach, but the wonder has to be helpful to players at economic parity with the AI too, right? You won't discover 10 techs by research unless you're already way ahead of the AI, or if you refuse to trade with them.

Also, it looks like the Radio technology is going to be removed in the next patch, which shortens the age.

[ducki]

Since we're making our own virtual City Improvement, we could make it equivalent to Libraries instead of Unis or even Labs, depending on where we expire the effect. Libraries "only" give a 50% science increase in their city(after corruption?).

We might even be able to completely customize it somewhere in between, I'm not sure.

My main reason for suggesting using the UN tech for expiration is that would, IMO, provide the most interesting strategic decision for the player - far above whether or not to get tanks(although this one does force a choice between war and building somewhat) and has much more game impact than the Computers option.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the UN tech is Fission. If so, wouldn't avoiding that tech prevent the player from building the Apollo project as well, slowing the spaceship build in addition to risking a diplo loss?

Like I said, correct me if I'm wrong about the tree - I'm not near familiar enough with the modern age - but I think the tech that allows the UN would create a very important, possibly game deciding, strategic decision, especially if there are Modern KAIs that have either good reps or a good chance at the spaceship.

Seriously, though, that was a great comparison and explanation of two free techs up front and effective "free" techs from science boost. Nice job!

[jshelr]

I believe Vulture's analysis is very close to perfect for our purposes. Alexman's comment suggests that the max benefit given Vulture's ending tech argument is the same as ToE now gives, although the "present value" of the benefit is less since you have to wait. I would like to see the benefit reduced a bit, and the possibility of trading does suggest that it would normally be a bit below 2 techs. Moreover, we are also removing electronics from the MT line which further reduces the impact of ToE from what it is now. MT looks like a good end point to me.

(Achieving a substantial, despite being temporary, edge on tech speed, even starting at tech parity, surely is an advantage well worth building a wonder to achieve.)