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Early Landing Comparison Game #1

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  • Smash,

    Welcome! It's great to see a fellow OCC player from back in the days when Paul had been organizing OCC games!

    You might enjoy playing this way, as it's very similar to OCC, but without the one city restriction.

    Many changes in playing style and strategy have been due to Samson's interest, and subsequent unravelling of, the mysteries of supply and demand in trade. A truly remarkable piece of detective work from which we all benefit now.

    RJM,

    My first practice attempt at OCC resulted in a landing in the late 1900's, which you improved upon in your first EL game, so you can look forward to rapid progress in the future games.

    I am forgetting that most here are new to OCC and EL type play and assumed everyone knew that the AI generally go bonkers after you get Space Flight, so making a ship quickly is important, and gifting tech to neighboring AI on those key turns during construction is another requirement. No need to withold anything, but make sure you spend gold as needed before making contact.

    SG(2),

    An excellent game, and when I compare the first half, I'm noticing that you beat me to many important landmarks, such as ST, Colossus, Copernicus and SSC size 21!

    You are also right about using Darwin's in this game, which is something I should have done, too, to improve my landing date. Sometimes I save it for the very end, when research costs are the highest, and when I'd rather be making gold instead of beakers in my SSC.

    Your summary of key events before the detailed log reminds me of the format we used to use in OCC, and I think doing this is a great idea and recommend that we adopt this summary in EL games when reporting results.

    I think you were hurt in the second half of your game by the bad luck of poor Aztec development following their loss of Teno their setbacks due to the war with the Vikings. I was luckier, being able to make great trades with those fat Aztec cities.

    You may have a "cunning" plan up your sleeve, and when noting your success in the first half of the game, I am starting to feel a bit nervous, but as Slow Thinker has suspected, I am "pyschic" and am devious enough to abuse this advantage, so beware!

    For now, I look forward to fownloading the latest games and reading through your log and RJM's.

    Comment


    • Thank you La Fayette and solo for your comments.

      Civ2 is a seven-year-old game, and one I have been playing for half that time. It's amazing we are still pushing back the frontiers of understanding to real success.

      I learnt a lot. Having played most of my civ on larger maps the power of the road/railroad phantom connections to AI cities does not occur so frequently. For many centuries I enjoyed 35 value trade routes to Mongol cities. One poignant example of how the AI manages its cities came to light during the play. Karakorum had gems within its city limits. During a Barb attack on this town I suddenly noticed my trade route had increased with the Mongol capital. This was because a Barb Legion had occupied a food square and the workers had to use the gems instead! Later on a Mongol engineer irrigated the precious tile.

      ------------------------------

      SG(2)
      "Our words are backed by empty wine bottles! - SG(2)
      "One of our Scouse Gits is missing." - -Jrabbit

      Comment


      • SG(2)

        Congratulations on a great result!!

        It's too bad about the Aztec problem with Barbs or you would have really kicked butt.

        Monk
        so long and thanks for all the fish

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SG(2)
          Thank you solo for setting up the game and for sharing your expertise with everyone. I hope to do better in the next one.
          I want also a 2nd game! I thought up to 400BC that the key civ for supreme is white - a big disaster. I will try to finish it (and to learn the caravan deliveries) but now the game is not very good for comparison purposes.

          Am I right in thinking you have never completed a landing on AC? If so ...why? You obviously know much about the game in a theoretical way.
          The answer will be short, so I think we can distract others:
          I have started about 10 Civ2 games (including scenarios) already. Starts of games are enough interesting for me, because I am a perfectionist: I remember I enjoyed the Campo's comparison game and I spent about 5-10 hours by thinking about an algorithm for a very early game.
          Also I don't like micromanagement of 30 cities. OK, I should try a OCC, but I don't have a Civ2 knowledge past Republic yet. Civ2 is very time consuming and so far I spent my limited time on those game starts (but I have to show off that I have finished one scenario).
          Civ2 "Great Library Index": direct download, Apolyton attachment

          Comment


          • @SlowThinker

            It does take time and you will (repeat-WILL) become addicted like the rest of us after completing a few games, so be warned.

            For the benifit of newer members of the community, ST has contributed many valuable research "papers" about this great game. No need to "show off", ST, as you have already shown up plenty.

            Monk
            so long and thanks for all the fish

            Comment


            • AFAIK the only scenario finished by ST was 'Mongol'
              ... but it must be mentioned that he finished sooner than samson
              ...well ahead of me
              Aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

              Comment


              • BTW, a situation that I have encountered from time to time is that I have two caravans ready to deliver different commodities to the same city which is demanding both of them. After delivering the first caravan, the demand list has changed and the second commodity is no longer in demand . Is there some way of avoiding this? I've tried making the first delivery from the city with the lowest base trade, but this didn't seem to do any good.

                RJM at Sleepers
                Fill me with the old familiar juice

                Comment


                • solo,
                  I would suggest you to move your two super posts about unblocking to a new thread. It deserves its own thread. RJM at Sleepers starts asking, I will do later...
                  Civ2 "Great Library Index": direct download, Apolyton attachment

                  Comment


                  • SG(2),

                    I had some time to look over your log in more detail. I think if you had been able to establish a few more colonies and had managed more trades with the AI with freights, two advances per turn were attainable at times. Internal trades don't bring as many beakers and gold, and any roaded or railed routes attained in helpers probably are not enough compensation for doing it this way.

                    I come away really impressed with the first half of your game, though, and may be adopting some of your ideas in my next game. For example, I gave a thought to learning Horseback Riding early, but discarded this idea, as well as going for Monarchy, in order to reduce carrying costs later in the game. However, looking, back, it may not have been necessary to avoid EVERY off path tech early.

                    It was interesting to hear about how barbarians shifted workers in a Mongol city, so that one ended up on gems, increasing the value of your trade routes. If the increase was substantial enough, it might have been worthwhile to deliver a few food caravans to that city to boost its population with the idea that the newest citizen might end up on gems after the barbarians had left.

                    Another tactic may apply in a situation where you might want to lower the base trade in an AI city with the hope of replacing its trade route somewhere. Temporarily occupy a tile with good trade with a unit or maybe poison the water supply to reduce cititzens.

                    I agree that some new and fascinating way to play this game always seems to appear in time to give it more life. Its depth, detail, and variety make this possible. Most other games are shallow and one-dimensional.

                    RJM,

                    Would you happen to have a save of your game made before attempting two deliveries to the same city? If so could you post it as an attachment? Most times, there is something specific about the city or the trades being made that make the difference. I can offer a few general comments:

                    1. The surest way to find out if a delivery will change a city's demands is to use Samson's formulas on that city to see how this triggering event will change the supply and demand lists. Changes in lists are due to such things as a change in city size, techs acquired, terrain changed, etc., resulting in new values for one or more supply and demand commodities. Any delivery will trigger changes, if any are due, for that city and bring its lists up to date. With the formulas you can figure out what will be in demand after the first delivery, and if one of the two caravans that are waiting will still be a demanded commodity, deliver the other one first. If both will be in demand, you can deliver in any order. If neither will be in demand, deliver the one you can make the most from and look for another place to deliver the other one.

                    2. Using these formulas is a lot of work, so if you want to just improve your odds of guessing which commodity is the right one to deliver first, you might just settle for calculating the demand wildcard, instead. If this happens to be on the demand list (usually in the middle position if it is), then deliver the other commodity first, since wildcard commodities usually stay put on demand lists after deliveries.

                    3. If you do not want to calculate wildcards, either, then you might assume that the middle commodity actually is the wildcard, and procedd as above in 2.

                    4. If your commodities do not match the wildcard or middle demand commodity, odds of success are best if you trade the right hand commodity first, since it just barely made the list in the first place, and is more likely to fall off the list after the first delivery updates the demand list.

                    5. If one of your commodities is dye or copper, which have "false" demands due to the "bug" Samson and I were always talking about, you are less likely to see them on lists after the first delivery. Usually, "false" demand for dye or copper is indicated when either occupys the left most position in the demand list.

                    6. There is a lot more that can be said about this, but maybe this is enough for the moment.

                    Slow Thinker,

                    I am thinking of incorporating the unblocking posts in the Early Landing Strategy Guide, which I have started working on.

                    I agree that missing key civ opportunites has probably "spoiled" your first game, but much can be learned by playing it out and by experimenting with other aspects and stages of EL games.

                    Beating Samson in a scenario would be a feather in anyone's cap, and my congratulations to you for managing that!

                    Monk,

                    More than addicting I think. After every game, I'm always thinking, "if only I had done this or that a little differently, I could have saved off another turn or two".
                    Once it catches hold of you, the early land bug is hard to shake loose!

                    To others wanting another game, so do I, and being pyschic, I'll be willing to make the prediction that I will have a fresh one waiting to go when this one is over. By the way, I also correctly predicted that I would not be one of the lucky ones to receive one of the 1000 free Rise of Nations betas recently given out! Grr!

                    Comment


                    • Monk Thanks! I have the feeling that you will land closer to solo's date than mine.

                      Slow Thinker I echo solo's thoughts that you should carry on playing and reach the Spaceship stage.

                      solo You are quite correct that the lack of good colonial and foreign trade was my downfall.

                      A question on the tech tree: I progressed from Space Flight > Plastics > Superconductor then found Fusion Power was not on the menu. Do you always need to research something that you can swap with the AI at this stage? I delayed Flight as long as possible because of the trade bonuses and The Colossus. Is this always the correct path, or is it better to take flight rather than research Mobile Warfare as in my game? (After Computers only Flight was offered on the main path)

                      ------------------------

                      SG(2)
                      "Our words are backed by empty wine bottles! - SG(2)
                      "One of our Scouse Gits is missing." - -Jrabbit

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by solo

                        I also correctly predicted that I would not be one of the lucky ones to receive one of the 1000 free Rise of Nations betas recently given out! Grr!
                        Seigneur, pardonnez leur!
                        Ils ne savent pas ce qu'ils font!

                        They probably didn't know that you would be the best among their testers if they sent you the game .
                        Anyway, they have no excuse
                        Aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

                        Comment


                        • SG(2),

                          If a trade is made on the turn prior to that where you would have ordinarily been presented with a short list of unwanted techs, you'll get the next list in sequence, instead, having the tech(s) you want.

                          The times this happens depends on your prior trades and your particular route through the tech tree. Usually, I postpone Flight until after getting everything else on the path that is available, including Computers and Laser. After this, I usually have to make a trade on the turn where I'm learning Advanced Flight, in order to pick Rocketry next. A little later, a trade while learning Superconductor, will let you pick Fusion Power next.

                          If the AI have nothing to trade, you have to learn some extra techs. Giving them these techs or others makes no difference in lists presented. This is another reason to avoid off path techs early in the game, since they can be used to skip unwanted tech lists, on turns where this is necessary. Oedo's research allows you to identify which turns these will be throughout the game. When a short tech list is due next, trade for an off path tech to skip past it to the next tech list in sequence.

                          By the way, any way of acquiring a new tech skips to the next list, such as when you get a tech from a hut or from taking a city. Things may be complicated by the tech which is acquired, too, as it may effect what may or may not be eligible to appear next.

                          Comment


                          • solo ... thanks. I will re-read oedo's thread on this one. Fascinating to think that acquiring Polytheism from a hut in 3000BC affects your chances of Fusion Power thousands of years later ... or in your case a few hundred

                            ----------------------

                            SG(2)
                            "Our words are backed by empty wine bottles! - SG(2)
                            "One of our Scouse Gits is missing." - -Jrabbit

                            Comment


                            • Once more, precious knowledge.
                              Thank you, solo. I don't think I ever read anything about how to skip short lists of unwanted techs.

                              BTW I replayed my game from 1AD and managed to launch in 1710, almost a century sooner than my 'official' game.
                              Still a long way to go , but this lets me feel a bit less awkward .
                              Aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

                              Comment


                              • I don't think anyone has anything to learn from my 'official' game. Hence this log, restricted to main events:
                                2250BC: Monarchy
                                1950BC: Barb attack
                                750BC: Marco
                                550BC: Colossus
                                350BC: Dye from Veii to Teotihuacan = 88g (first camel overseas)
                                325BC: Republic
                                80AD: Shakespeare
                                460AD: Rome size 21
                                680AD: Copernicus
                                800AD: Isaac
                                900AD: Mike
                                940AD: Democracy
                                1120: RR
                                1240AD: Corporation
                                1520AD: Automobile
                                1730AD: Flight
                                Aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

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