Early Landing Comparison Game #1

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo

1276 Arrival on Alpha Centauri

Wow! It's great to look over the shoulder of a master at work. It all seems so easy as you explain it and then I go back to my game and it gets difficult again. I think I will need to read your log many times to learn all the lessons.

Thanks - and keep up the good work.

RJM at Sleepers

[SlowThinker]

Before I will comment Monk I must say I have no experience with neither caravans, neither OCC or early landing games. My few Civ2 games ended about 0 AD. So include automately texts 'I have a feeling' and 'maybe' into my sentences.

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Location, location, location...I like the way you sited your first seven cities, but mine are much more tightly spaced. I had the seventh by 1100bc, and with roads/rivers

I agree. I had the 8th city in 1000BC. I think the first 5-8 cities should be positioned so that they are ideal for size 2. Also it is safer (or the defense is less expensive) if you can move your 1-movement units from one city to neighbouring city in one turn. It is also better for micromanagement (rehoming) under despotism or monarchy.
In the beginning you need to build an economic base, cities that can WLTxD to size 20 can come later.

Monarchy works fine...We have talked about this before.

I didn't read that debate, but I agree. For building that economic base monarchy is good, especially the 3-shield bonus for every city due to no unit support.

Early diplomat exploration...I sent out a dip to explore eastward by 1700 and found the Chinese by 1150.

Why not Marco Polo? I had Marco in 600BC as my first wonder and I was satisfied. I got maps and about 5 techs immediately.

Sleaze to Freeze...As a result of packing my cities tightly, I sited Pompeii at (12,26) and stationed a warrior on the swamp just in front of it.

You are a happy man. I tried to block this square too, but unfortunately one settler slipped out from the Mongol peninsula before. It found a city and I had to withdraw . After a Mongol sneak attack I decided to capture that city, but it was very costly for me. Maybe I should go for peace again?

Wonders...I agree with all you have said about NOT building the Gardens...I am toying with the idea of going off the reservation again by building Mike's Chapel instead of Colosseums everywhere

My plan is to get a huge economy: HG, Mike and celebration in all cities.

[SlowThinker]

About right clicking - I think I forgot to add a patch after a reinstall.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Why not Marco Polo? I had Marco in 600BC as my first wonder and I was satisfied. I got maps and about 5 techs immediately.

I think MPE would work better on a large map ... this one is medium.

The only science you should swap using MPE are the ones you need immediately ... otherwise the tech carrying cost goes up too much. I except that if an AI has an advance which leads to a wonder its best to acquire it soon because they may not exchange once wonder building has commenced.

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SG(2)

[SlowThinker]

SG(2),
Thank you for an advice, but for this once I meant 5 needed techs.

I agree that MPE would work better on a large map, but I think here it works well enough. Imagine you build a trireme with two diplomats: it is 100 shields against 200 shields of MPE.

[Scouse Gits]

ST they may have been needed techs - but all at one go? It's better technique to know you can swap techs with the AI so if your options for research do not include the vital one you require you can pick something capable of being exchanged. Next turn you see a new menu for science - usually including the target one.

I would never deter anybody from building MPE but in this kind of game on a medium map the dips in the trireme just have the advantage. They can locate decent sites for colonies and give direct routes to overseas civs. Often when swapping maps via MPE all you see is a blob of land a little east of nowhere. When the first caravans set off you find that there's another huge continent between you and the blob. In short, MPE gives maps, the guys in the boat can provide navigation charts as well.

---------------------------

SG(2)

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
the guys in the boat can provide navigation charts as well.

---------------------------

SG(2)

Admiral Puke might have discovered that

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
ST they may have been needed techs - but all at one go? It's better technique to know you can swap techs with the AI so if your options for research do not include the vital one you require you can pick something capable of being exchanged. Next turn you see a new menu for science - usually including the target one.

I would never deter anybody from building MPE but in this kind of game on a medium map the dips in the trireme just have the advantage. They can locate decent sites for colonies and give direct routes to overseas civs. Often when swapping maps via MPE all you see is a blob of land a little east of nowhere. When the first caravans set off you find that there's another huge continent between you and the blob. In short, MPE gives maps, the guys in the boat can provide navigation charts as well.

---------------------------

SG(2)

Yup, agreed, the shield comparison ST made above is fine in theory but is a little lacking in practice.

Perhaps you should play more games ST?

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by DrSpike


Perhaps you should play more games ST?

Shouldn't you either, DrSpike ?

[Bloody Monk]

@ST

Thank you for your comments. My intuition was that you were having a patch problem and I hope all is well now. If I may offer a suggestion based on another intuition I got from your comments. (Others seem to be operating from this frame of reference as well.) What I would like to point out is that Early Landing is a very different game. I don't think folk are appreciating that yet. The key concept is time--it is, after all, about EARLY Landing. (Emphasis on the pun, not shouting) Everything done must pass a "time test." The only way to shave centuries off your result is to skimp, cut corners, and be brutally efficient with timing and sequence.

For example, this comment..."especially the 3-shield bonus for every city due to no unit support."

Solo has shown the way here. The 3-shield bonus would never occur. He advocates carring no units. None. Don't build them and don't keep them if they are holdovers from pre-Republic. At most, the city has to be able to carry a settler. Defense is an illusion based on being "Supreme" and liberal tech sharing. It's the two food deal that trips you up. One implication is that cities really must be started on grass. Otherwise, they can't support a settler in Republic and grow back to size three, to celebrate later.

Another example..."Why not Marco Polo?"

The point here is not whether MP (or any other Wonder, or city improvement) would be nice to have or not. It is the green eye-shade, cost accounting business of opportunity cost analysis. To cut centuries off your result you must--to use an analogy--pack very, very light. Only bring along the absolute essentials. The decision does not hinge on whether something would be nice to have, but how much space it takes up and how heavy it will be to lug around.

Those four camels could have gone somewhere else is the point. You only get a turn once, then the opportunity is gone. Better to build Colossus, for instance, to enhance YOUR research, rather than hoping the AI will research what you will want, when you will want it. I echo SG's point about navigation charts as well.

The same reasoning applies to other concerns/questions in the game as well, city improvements for helpers, number and placement of cities, how far to grow the helpers and when. One of the most important principles is getting research time down to one turn as soon as possible. Simply put, you can't launch until you run out the tech tree; so nothing should hinder that objective. Hence the discussion about carrying costs of unneeded techs.

As for celebrating up the helpers with "We Love," don't let them grow faster than they can be sustained with limited or no Luxuries after the celebration period is finished. You will want the slider to be on science, not lux. So the comment, " My plan is to get a huge economy," may be counter intuitive. All that is needed is a fat SSC and a limited number of helpers. Someone earlier commented on having three size 28 cities, IIRC. That's a lot of time and resources spent on growing those other cities that probably could have better gone to cranking out more camels to feed a "needed wonder" or spaceship parts.

There is more I could ramble on about, but here is a Monkism..."Do less and accomplish more." Hoping this is helpful.

Monk

[SCG]

@BM I didn't go for the really large cities until i had pretty much abandoned the concept of early landing, and chose to just get some practice in for commodity brokering. Looking over my log, i think i realized i was in deep trouble for early landing in 850BC. And i think i decided to completely abandoned the plan shortly after building Copernicus' Observatory. I wasn't really far off tech, I was just so far behind in tech that i couldn't maintain peace with my neighbors. After righting the ship, I probably could have cut 100-150 years off my landing date by steering back on course, since i could keep the mongols happy. However, I decided for the fun of it to see how high (not low) I could get the beaker cost, mainly cause even with exchanging maps I still didn't know where the greeks were. I did for the most part stay on tech most of the rest of the way - other than refrigeration and espionage. Refrigeration was a concession to realizing i had way too many large cities as it was to get the luxuries lower than maybe 20%, so decided to blow up the population to compensate. The other really major problem i had was awful city placement. I commented early that my cities weren't getting any production. I also lacked coastal ports, or had them on the wrong side of the island. All of which hindered my progress and let to relative abandonment.

Early on, though, it looked promising - republic in 2050, and only 1 shield support at the time (a settler), and 2 cities with same turn deliveries to Home (once i got mapmaking)

[solo]

SCG,

I enjoyed reading your log and looking over your save. I noticed you gave up gifting techs to the Mongols, and that the current tech cost was 3280 beakers, which I was able to knock all the way down to 2132 by gifting all your tech without your permission! This shows how important tech gifts to the key civ are in reducing tech costs!

It’s too bad that you gave up on trying to land early, because you DID get off to a very quick start. You accumulated the first 7 or 8 techs much more quickly than I did, and were in Republic much sooner, which really got my attention. I may start reconsidering my policy about choosing helper locations, after noticing this.

It looks like you’re really getting the hang of unblocking, too, and if you had been able to get a few well-placed colonies and worked more to trade with the AI on other continents, you might have got much more benefit from this.

The main thing I got from your log was that you has fun playing the game out the way you chose, and that’s what its really all about. Why try to land earliest if you are not enjoying the process?

La Fayette,

Monarchy and Marco Polo’s are both viable options in early landing games. I think Samson overdoes it by avoiding the carrying costs of Monarchy, especially in situations where Republic is delayed. I look forward to hearing about your second attempt, and since you are only two techs back in 1 AD, my hopes are more optimistic than 1750, too. I think you’ll do better than that once you figure out unblocking.

Have fun with it.

Monk (and Slow Thinker, SG(2) and others responding to his comments)

These are all excellent points, and I like it when other players are thinking for themselves hoping their own ideas may produce the best results! I will comment on the points you made and on some of the replies from others.

1. Helper locations. In my first early landing games I was a fan of tight formations, with helpers frequently overlapping SSC tiles and sharing its specials before the SSC grew to full size. The advantages of shorter roads, easier defense, and the sharing and swapping of specials or irrigated terrain, etc., as needed, seemed obvious. Techs were acquired more quickly, too, because new cities were founded sooner and start contributing science earlier.

However, as trade became a more important part of my strategy, I started looking for locations facilitating this, such as ones having coastal access. With a harbor, other improvements were not needed, except for connecting roads.

I have also learned that there is no need to exceed the maximum number of cities allowed before happiness is impacted, which on a standard map are 4 for Despotism, 6 for Monarchy, 8 for Republic, and 10 for Democracy. It takes time and resources to add and develop extra cities. In early landing games the numbers of cities above are sufficient. So, by limiting the number of helper cities, I’ve found it pays a bit in the beginning to hunt around for the best locations in the immediate area, looking for a good specials or the right mix of terrain. Now I go for quality rather than quantity. In his own games, Samson has proven that less can often be more with his excellent results.

I’ve also noticed that players used to playing aggressively have a hard time getting used to the idea that you can defend adequately with good diplomacy. Barbarians are the exception, but diplomats can usually handle them easily. Tight defensive city formations are not needed, and if a helper is lost to the AI or barbarians, the impact is not as disastrous as devoting all the time and effort going into trying to prevent this from happening. My advice is to be like the AI and become less passionate about your cities! You can always make others.

2. Monarchy vs. Early Republic. Monarchy has advantages, and I like to use it myself when I expect a delay getting to Republic. In my opinion (but not Samson’s!), its carrying costs are outweighed by its many advantages over Despotism. Many of you have already proven that you can acquire techs just as quickly by using Monarchy and staying in it longer, and I may be changing my own strategy by deferring Republic until I’m ready to celebrate my SSC. Monarchy still allows tribute, which is a more likely source of income than gifts for the player rated as Supreme. However, techs ARE learned more quickly in Republic. Monk may be ahead of me so far in his game by 1 tech, but this is not because of the preferred form of government. He was able to acquire 5 techs more than I did through trades, and it was this that allowed him to “catch up” to my own pace of acquiring techs.

3. Marco Polo’s. I almost decided to build this myself. Without any four footers from huts, as in usual games, there certainly is delay in making contact with the other AI. Those who have used MP, have averaged 5 additional techs through trades and have had chances for alliances, which are easier to come by earlier in the game before you become “too” Supreme. I decided against MP, because I happened to meet my early trading partner, the Aztecs, without having to look around too much. Other contacts came quickly after that, but I am still wondering whether or not I would have been better off building MP as early as possible using the first helper finishing its temple. I don’t really buy into the comparative cost argument, though, because triremes are also important for carrying early caravans overseas, for establishing good colonies, and for nailing barb leaders rebounding from failed attacks against AI cities. Diplomats are extremely versatile and useful for more things than just making contact with the other AI. However, building MP may become a key part of EL strategy, since the presence of more huts increases AI odds of tipping techs. I can see using MP information and judicious tech gifts to improve the odds that techs tipped end up being useful ones.

4. Hanging Gardens. This is another one you can’t count out, either. The thing I like the best about it is that the SSC can celebrate earlier to a really decent size without ST. The things I dislike are that it expires fairly early, it is more cost effective when you have many cities, Pottery is an off-path tech, and Pottery triples the chances of all your cities producing salt, something you don’t want to be trading with later on. Finally, I would rather build ST a little earlier if deferring on HG allows this, or would consider MP the better use of 200 shields. However, many of you have more experience with HG and with its benefits and may end up proving me wrong. We’ll see.

5. Michaelangelos. I used to recommend this myself, but then discovered that there’s no need to have bigger helpers and colonies early in the game. Colosseums work just as well and can be easily rushed and maintained by the time they become necessary. The clincher is that two off-path techs must be acquired to build Michaelangelo’s. However, if the AI have learned Monotheism by the time I need colosseums, Michaelangelo’s may be the best way to go.

6. SG(2) makes a very good point about wonder techs I wish to reiterate. Nothing is worse than hearing that those wise and noble AI geniuses are building the wonder you want with the tech they refuse to trade to you. There are times when there’s no harm in accumulating techs in bunches. It’s when you are a turn or two away from learning a vital tech needed immediately, that it’s best to postpone a trade. Of course, off path tech trades should be deferred as long as possible. Deferring trades also allows you more opportunities to reset the tech research list, too.

7. Slow Thinker makes a good point about having a good economy, but this can take too much time to develop the way you’re liking or used to doing in early landing games. I go along with this somewhat by giving some priority a marketplace, bank and stock exchange in my SSC, but base the substance of my own EL economy on trade with the overseas AI and with my colonies.

Finally, Monk’s progress makes me a little nervous, having finished ST and Colossus ahead of me. His game may prove that building MP is the best way to go in this no hut tipping games. I have just noticed he has posted again, and may respond further after reading. For now I'm enjoying very much to see that many different things are being tried and that players are not automatically assuming my opinions are correct becasue of some good results so far.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by SG(2)
ST they may have been needed techs - but all at one go? It's better technique to know you can swap techs with the AI so if your options for research do not include the vital one you require you can pick something capable of being exchanged. Next turn you see a new menu for science - usually including the target one.

I know. I plan with Civ2planner.
You were more useful with your advices in the past, I remember when you told me about the mapmaking after my question why the AI don't want to exchange maps although it is worshipful.

Originally posted by SG(2)
I would never deter anybody from building MPE but in this kind of game on a medium map the dips in the trireme just have the advantage. They can locate decent sites for colonies and give direct routes to overseas civs.

I would never deter anybody from the exploration. After MPE I started to explore. But now I may explore deep waters only, because the map swap grants me positions of cities of AIs.
Ok, exclude that trireme from my computation. I suppose you want embassies (or not?) for tech exchange and for ability to give prerequisites to AI if you want the AI discover a tech for you. 6 diplomats cost you 180 shields, MPE 200 shields, but it is instant, and so its value is much bigger.

@ Monk and SG
BTW, I think the the tech carrying cost is not very important in the long term since there is not a big difference between 60 and 65 techs for example. In the beginning I want an economical boost and I take techs that help it (for example Polytheism + Monotheism) without respect if the tech is needed for the spaceship or not.
'My plan is to get a huge economy' : By huge I mean effective, I count the net production of course. I don't plan any improvement. Mike is for celebration purposes, then I can let them in disorder rotately (famine trick).

Originally posted by Monk
All that is needed is a fat SSC and a limited number of helpers.

Only one super city? Do you mean you trade with AI only? Please see point 2. below.

Originally posted by DrSpike
Perhaps you should play more games ST?

Wait for my result. It will come about 6 month later (it is ok now, but after the Republic I will be really in deep water), but you will be impressed.
Seriously, now the main problem for me is
1. to time exploration/colonies with the start of Republic
2. to count how many super cities (colonies) that will produce caravans I need (with regard to the fact that there is only one science from caravans)

Edit: I didn't read the solo's post yet.

[solo]

Slow Thinker,

You're right! That's key advantage of MP, instant embassies. I am going to experiment a bit with using this wonder. I used to get a lot a benefit from it in OCC games, which are very similar to EL games, even though MP was not part of the "Paulicy".

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by SCG
@BM I didn't go for the really large cities until i had pretty much abandoned the concept of early landing, and chose to just get some practice in for commodity brokering.

Yeah, I remembered that; that's why I noted w/o attribution to you. I was only trying for an example to illustrate the point.

I think your game was very promising early on and a different approach vis the Mongols would have made a huge difference. You have to bring your own vaseline and give them everything they ask, and you must be meek--there, I said it. And don't even think to "insist" they remove their troops.

But, isn't this fun!! It's like the old days, years ago with all the discussion about "new ideas" for playing this great game. It's all very exciting for me to learn new tricks and being a student at the feet of this particular master -Solo- is very rewarding. Doing things the same way over and over was beginning to get a bit routine, if you know what I mean.

Monk