2001 Players Tourney, Round 1: Group B - Markus (Host), Deity, Hydey, Makeo

[cavebear]

Continuing the Game

Well, it looks to me from all the discussion, and from what I have been able to tell from looking at the game files, that no actual cheating occurred.

No actual list of game rules seems to have been drawn up for this game. You were already in informal alliances early in the game, and if alliances can be made, then they can also be broken. One player has told me he understood that a one time gift of units was allowed.

That the gifted units popped out of the city they were in seems rather obvious; they couldn't very well stay in the now-foreign city after all. That does not count as a "move". The files I have looked at do not show whether they had been moved earlier in that same turn, and Deity swears they were not moved.

Deity may have chosen a rather spectacular way of dissolving his alliance with Markus, but that is not illegal, per se. And since he believes that Markus used priveledged information about his (Deity's) cities to suggest a good point of attack to Hydey, that seems to indicate that the alliance was a formality only by that point.

I also note that Markus is on top of the PG and rising where others are declining or stagnant, that he did not lose any cities (did I miss one?), and his defense was a military success (a kill ratio of at least 3-1).

It seems to me that all players should come back to the table and continue where they left off (1300?).

[deity]

Proof is possible...

Yo Cavebear - hope you are OK.

There IS a way of proving that units did NOT move BTW, just for the record.

Open up the 1270 Greek (deity) Auto save - this is my auto save which I do have and I also sent to Markus straight after the last game session (TOURNEY_de_Auto2). If you open as my Greeks it is uncorrupted by AI moves elsewhere.

Once opened as Greeks play my turn - ie build the rest of the railway.

Hit Enter.

The game moves to Markus white civ and the game year hits 1280.
Then Hydey's blue civ moves..
then Makeo's yellows.....
Then in 1280 on my Greek turn cede the Engineers to Germans (Hydey) WITHOUT moving them.

1290 - Germans move my Engineers for the FIRST time!!!!!!

Hey, guess what I just realised!!!

My Engineers weren't moved by ANYONE during 1280!

I was too cautious about this issue arising

Markus, I think to be fair you should at least publicly apologise for the cheating slurr. Please?
Other folks may not say anything but may quietly think to themselves that so and so is a cheater because the suspicion is there.
You've been a good sport with other issues so how about it?

----

Another problem with the game is that Markus has looked at our maps because he said he was retiring but I'm prepared to let that go if it gets him back in the game

[Rasputin]

deity doesnt cheat, he jsut assists his allies enemies !!!!

[deity]

Decision and day off....

Ok, we need a decision on all this but I can't play tomorrow.
I'll be online at the usual time to discuss the way forward but will have to disappear soon after....
If Markus plays on then my understanding is we use the last save from the beginning of the Spanish turn in 1300AD.
If he retires we need to decide what to do with his civ.

[cavebear]

I have ICQ'd Markus asking him to reconsider his withdrawal from the Tourney and from this specific game. I am hoping he will choose to fight rather than quit. He is a top player, and we all want him involved in this game and this Tourney. Personally, I consider this an opportunity for Markus to prove *why* he is one of the top players. Responding to adversity is the hallmark of a true champion.

I think most of the (understandable) concerns that caused the disruption of the game have been examined pretty carefully, and that there are no remaining concerns of anyone cheating. As we have all learned recently in the real world, surprise can cause confusion and suspicion. Fortunately, this is just a game, and it is far easier to resolve such things.

If I were Markus, I would not hesitate to rejoin the game. Deity is going to have a very hard time of things if he does, and I would not want to be in his shoes.

[deity]

Markus says no

I'm afraid Markus has said he won't play.

We are deciding what to do.

We may divide up Roman empire and then kill Roman civ to destroy capital.

[cavebear]

Halt, Cease, and Desist!

I hate to put it bluntly, but that's an order.

First, I want to hear from Markus himself about this, just to make it official.

Second, I will decide if you will have a replacement for Markus or an alteration to the game.

I know that sounds annoying as hell, but I'm trying to manage a tournament here and I have to consider the far-reaching consequences.

Myt first choice is to get Markus back, and I would appreciate an opportunity. Second would be to find some one of sufficient stature to replace him in the existing game. Third option is for me to grab the current game file, make it a scenario and change the map to remove the Romans yet allow the remaining 3 players access to each other.

OK?

[Makeo]

ok

[deity]

Fair enough cavebear....

A few thoughts...

1) I'm amazed at Markus decision.
Without trying to be too annoying I just reckon that someone who boasts as much as him is really showing incredible weakness to not play on. He originally retired on the basis that Antium was lost and that it was a 3:1 gang up.
AFTERWARDS he brought up excuses about rules being broken but that has now been resolved.
So, it gets back to in-game strategy....
It's one thing to have super trade and growth strats, it's another to work all facets of the game in all it's abundant strats! A truly great player would not toss in the towel when the situation doesn't suit. Markus, you are losing credibility over this so for God's sake why not play on and have some fun! Relax about winning and losing - it's not the end of the world.

2) cavebear, if we get a replacement no matter how good or bad, it does not truly reflect their ability since they did not build up Markus civ. So, do you mean a non-competetive replacement? Someone who plays the Romans to the best of their ability but NOT part of the tourney?

3) Regarding the pg in the game at 1300AD:
The pg won't update with the loss of Markus city AND lots of wonders until 1330 so the current pg is a bit misleading. My pop is actually higher than Markus's and it's only those Wonders keeping him up the top (I think)
Playing his civ will be very challenging despite the currently high number of units and cities.

[Hydey]

Cavebear has done everything very well so far and I see no reason not to go along with whatever he decides.

[cavebear]

First of all, let me say that appreciate the way all have you have given me a chance to straighten things out. I know you are anxious to get on with the game.

Second, I have tried to get Markus to rejoin the game, but he will not.

Third, how to get the game going again?

The best thing would be to find someone who would continue in the Tourney in Markuss place. Perhaps someone who could not play when it started but can now, or someone nominated who has changed their mind about not playing.

The next best thing would be to have someone join just to finish this game, to play the Romans in a reasonable fashion. There were some people who would have played but dislike the 2x1x and 2x2x rounds.

The last thing I can suggest is that I remove the Romans and reduce the territory they held. There should be enough land left that the Spanish and the Greeks can get at each other, but not so much that it penalizes the Germans who won't have access to that area.

I am open to suggestions on replacement players or changing the map.

Hell of a week......

[TCO]

Re: Fair enough cavebear....

Originally posted by deity
A few thoughts...

1) I'm amazed at Markus decision.
Without trying to be too annoying I just reckon that someone who boasts as much as him is really showing incredible weakness to not play on. He originally retired on the basis that Antium was lost and that it was a 3:1 gang up.

Isn't it usually the biggest boasters who puss out when they are losing? They are too insecure to play on while losing. They see the game purely as a won/loss exercise and not as a fun experience.

[Rasputin]

ok i might be able to help out and finish this game for you guys, whendo you play ???

[Hydey]

Raz

He beat eyes of the night, he will just crush us all.

I hope he starts with Deity

[deity]

Game is corrupted

Hate to say this cavebear, but as Makeo said to me on icq, this game can no longer be a tourney game. I tend to agree with that.
I reckon it can only continue as a tourney game if Markus returns.

Please, Markus, you must return to this game.

I'm so sick of investing months of time in terrific games that effectively fall apart because a player drops out.

If the Roman civ is played by a non-competitive replacement it is ANOTHER game.

If Markus doesn't return I'm happy to go by the pg to determine places OR have a rematch.

But the game as it stands is corrupted without Markus.

All strategy changes because of an out of game event, ie Markus retiring.
Why waste resources going after the Romans who aren't in the tourney?
Makeo said he wasn't going to press attacks against the Romans and Hydey said all deals are off. I'm quite happy with backstabbing based on in-game strategy but NOT as a result of an out of game occurrence. Forget it. You can only play a game like this with the original players.