2001 Players Tourney, Round 1: Group B - Markus (Host), Deity, Hydey, Makeo

[deity]

The civ game was designed to gift units. IF they are in a city, of course they pop out! You are splitting hairs about unit moves. If they are anywhere on my rail system it is irrelevant.

You are being very misleadsing here Markus.

I'm happy to play from whatever turn everyone agrees on or as arbitrated by cavebear, if I'm deemed wrong. BUT stop this crap about cheating and two movements etc.. you know it's rubbish.

[J.C.]

ROE...rules of engagement

This goes to show how important it is to get these straight before you play.. esp in a "points" game & esp. in Civ 2 . I think it would be good to have a list of these somewhere.. handy. & possibly the "defaults" if they are not mentioned before the game starts.

Dog

[Rasputin]

Would be interested in seeing any evidence you hav eof thosae units moving twice Markus, If Deity moved them on his turn then he shouldnt have gifted them till the following turn.. But lets see the eveidence first...

And if you look at my early post in this thread markus, i warned you a 3 way allieance would occur agaisnt you , even if it was an unofficial allainces, you were the best player and the others obviously decided to stop you and the only way to do that was a joint effort...

[deity]

NOT a three way alliance!

Raz, this was not a 3 way alliance.
It was a strategic move by my civ. I RARELY or NEVER betray an ally unless I have good reason (but it doesn't matter if you do!).

Markus betrayed me first; I caught him out and then I betrayed him.
I only made a truce with Hydey to enable him to attack his enemy, Markus, so I could stave off war, but Germans are not allies at this point and never have been....

I've been very careful in this game to avoid a criticism of a three way gang up. If Markus had been a better ally it would not have happened.

[deity]

Markus took gold as a gift to rush build units...

What's the difference?
Markus needed 100's of gold earlier in the game (some as a loan, some as a gift) when Makeo attacked him. He needed gold to rush build units! So, what's the diference between that and actually ceding units????? In game terms it still amounts to outside support for a war effort.

[Hydey]

I believe what happened was fair and above board, To my knowledge no units moved twice during a turn, I certainly did not see that happen.
Deity is an honourable man and would not cheat, for that matter Markus and Makeo would not cheat either. I am more then happy for the umpire to make his call on this one.

[markusf]

Re: Markus took gold as a gift to rush build units...

Originally posted by deity
What's the difference?
Markus needed 100's of gold earlier in the game (some as a loan, some as a gift) when Makeo attacked him. He needed gold to rush build units! So, what's the diference between that and actually ceding units????? In game terms it still amounts to outside support for a war effort.

I only accepted 300 gold the whole game and i gave it back the next turn. you never gifted me any gold, although you gave me some because of the caravan thing. IE they where moving 3-10 squares a turn over mountains and hills with no road and getting double to triple what mine where getting.(now thats bizzare)

There is a big difference between giving someone units, and giving them cash. What you did is you gifted pretty much your whole army to hydy in one turn after i destroyed his and then you attacked. You gifted them while they where still in the city. I was under the assumption it wasn't allowed, not only that i asked you repeadily if that is what you where doing because things just weren't adding up, there was just no way he could move that many units to your landmass in so little time. But you ignored me and never answered. Had i known i would have moved more of my 70 defensive units into my cap. hydy lost 30 units on 6 units.

here are some of the saves

http://64.180.52.105/game/

[cavebear]

Hoo Boy....

Do I have to jump into this yet, or is it still settlable among you all?

I can offer a few thoughts:

1. The rules were deliberately vague so that different groups could choose whether their games would be lethal or polite, bloodlust or building, as suited them. The last thing I wanted to have to do was to provide a horribly long list of "Do's and Don'ts". Everyone complains about that, and the games become either overly-limiting for most players or grounds for lawyer-wannabees.

2. I would have thought that such experienced players would have settled on most rules beforehand. You guys play at the top level routinely, none of these actions should have been a surprise. The basic rule is "If the software intends a possibility, it is OK unless the group has decided against it beforehand". I did some of that by not permitting city/unit bribing, for example (or whatever I said when it all started).

3. I will be glad to look at a few specific game files for particular events in order to answer specific questions, especially when it would require players to cheat to figure out the answers.

4. I will answer one matter, at least, right now. Gifting a unit (or units) is not
specifically illegal (unless there is proof of that having been made so by group consensus). If gifting a city unit places the unit outside the city (which of course it must), that can't be considered a "move" by the gifting player. If the unit was moved first (as evidenced from its position in the previous game file) that is generally understood as wrong in any game and should not have been done.

5. Some of the objections I have seen fall into the category of "I didn't expect you to do that". Sorry, but this *is* a tournament, anyone can be as double-dealing and as treacherous as they want (or at least can get away with). It is OK to try and save your hide or improve your position by betraying an ally. The penalties for that may come later, or it may be a game-winning event. But it isn't ever illegal.

6. A game at a true impasse can be settled by a pronouncment "on high" (me, in this case), or by player agreements to repair the damage at the current turn, or by reverting to a previous turn by agreement. I will do the first if required (as best I can, and possibly satisfying no one), but I would prefer one of the other two choices. In the case of the latter two options, I can serve as a mediator if that will help. Players can email me suggestions privately at cavebear@erols.com or post them here.

Hope this helps...

cavebear

[deity]

OK, I'll try not to keep responding cos it will go on forever!
Let me just say that Markus does exagerate, as we all know, and often omits certain facts

Anyway, the good thing is we can have this debate and still be civ mates.

I spoke to Makeo and Hydey and they both fully support what happened in the game as fair and legitimate despite confusion over game rules. Thus, the consensus of the players in the game is to move on from where we are and appeal to Markus to play on and kick ass! That low-down, dirty backstabbing SOB deity......

[arii]

Markus, I told you to kill players early in the game if you have the opportunity. They always come back to stab you if you don't.

[Rasputin]

Re: NOT a three way alliance!

Originally posted by deity
Raz, this was not a 3 way alliance.
It was a strategic move by my civ. I RARELY or NEVER betray an ally unless I have good reason (but it doesn't matter if you do!).

Markus betrayed me first; I caught him out and then I betrayed him.
I only made a truce with Hydey to enable him to attack his enemy, Markus, so I could stave off war, but Germans are not allies at this point and never have been....

I've been very careful in this game to avoid a criticism of a three way gang up. If Markus had been a better ally it would not have happened.

It was a 3 way allaince of sorts as i said official or unaffocial, Markus was suddenly faced with 3 opponents, Makeo was fighitnig him all game, then you giving Hydey your units menas you joined the war... >> I would like to know how gifiting your army to Hydey means "saved your civ" surely it is only a temporary repreave, hydey must eventually turn on you!!! So what you did was sell out your ally for a small gain for yuorself.

You mention markus doing backstabbing first, i didnt see that so i guess the allaince was on shaky ground any way, but it still holds that you cant possible win from here due to the fact Hydey now has your army and should (unless he is crazy) take you out and face makeo alone...

But i dont think you cheated, i just think you used a tactic that surprises markus and i wil hav eto watch you cloese rin futrure

[deity]

Behind my back he encouraged Hydey to attack my weakly defended northern ports...

I made it bold in the original post so you wouldn't miss it Raz!

I can assure you that I would NOT betray an ally first. I require them to make a mistake against me BEFORE I'd engage in such a thing (up until the Space Age).

I'm sure Makeo and Hydey would attest to that because my alliance with Markus was a big problem for them. But it was Markus who brought our alliance down by getting Hydey to attack me.

I operate on the basis of in-game cause and effect, NOT on the whims of icq deals etc. I see civ as a role playing game and prefer the diplo style game but I realise some players prefer to operate on the basis of game mechanics, which is fair enough too.

[Rasputin]

Re: Behind my back he encouraged Hydey to attack my weakly defended northern ports...

Originally posted by deity
I made it bold in the original post so you wouldn't miss it Raz!

Yes i saw that but didnt see any proof of the claim, and besides that Hydey was alreasy at war with you , he should have been attacking your northern ports

[deity]

Re: Re: Behind my back he encouraged Hydey to attack my weakly defended northern ports...

Originally posted by Rasputin

Yes i saw that but didnt see any proof of the claim, and besides that Hydey was alreasy at war with you , he should have been attacking your northern ports

No one is questioning Hydey's motives. Of course he should be attacking but Markus specifically urged Hydey to attack me where he knew I was weak.

My point is that I'm desperately trying to maintain my spotless rep!!!

AND trying to comvince you that I would not normally betray an ally UNLESS they asked for it!

[Rasputin]

Re: Re: Re: Behind my back he encouraged Hydey to attack my weakly defended northern ports...

Originally posted by deity
No one is questioning Hydey's motives. Of course he should be attacking but Markus specifically urged Hydey to attack me where he knew I was weak.

Evidence ??

My point is that I'm desperately trying to maintain my spotless rep!!!

I know better

AND trying to comvince you that I would not normally betray an ally UNLESS they asked for it!

i not sure that getting hydey to attack you is ASKING for it !!! Giving Hydey units or building a railroad for him would be asking for it, but simply asking an enemy to attack you is not breaking Alliance , IMHO