2001 Players Tourney, Round 1: Group B - Markus (Host), Deity, Hydey, Makeo

[markusf]

Re: The Tourney Rlues

Originally posted by deity
I suggest you stick with these unless your game has already started or unless a couple of them are objected to by everyone in a game:

Incremental Rush Buying - OK
Ship Chaining - NO
Gifting cities/units/caravans - NO
Hitting wait so a plane doesn't crash - NO
Formal Strategic Alliances - NO
Continuing to build a wonder after its been built - OK
Tech stealing, Embassies, sabotage - OK
Caraporting - NO
Adjusting city resources during a turn to maximize trade benefits - OK
Building an Airbase to increase production - NO
City/Unit trading/bribing- NO
-----
just a reminder for our group but too late to change the alliance thing.

What bugs me the most is that diety gifted hydy a bunch of units so he could attack me. otherwise there is no way he could have taken my city. I looked at my saves and he gave hydy a 5 calvery and 5 engineers. Which without he would never have taken my city. I guess there is no point in complaining since the game is over, but next time people decide the rules don't apply the least they could do is tell everyone else!

[deity]

Hydey takes Antium!

Markus, they were the rules suggested by cavebear after discussion in another thread and AFTER our game had started. We already had alliances and cavebear said that the original rules were no city bribe/no unit bribe, the rest was up to us. There was little discussion about these extra rules so I for one forgot about them and I believe they were NOT agreed to by our group. If they were then I should not have given you gold when Makeo was attacking you at a critical point, etc etc. Once we had alliances we were locked into the basic rules only.

Anyway, we must continue this game.

The game story:

Markus and I were allied;
Hydey and Makeo were allied;
Makeo attacked Markus way back and maintained war ever since -
currently 1570 AD I think;
Markus thougt he could take them both on with Leo and lots of units and tried to get me involved;
I only gave and lent gold and was technically at war with Hydey by stealing techs - which I gave to Markus to redress the balance of techs he had given me (pretty equal by then);
Markus wars stagnated after he won back Viroconium;
Behind my back he encouraged Hydey to attack my weakly defended northern ports - this is game role playing so I'm NOT complaining.

Hydey launched a big attack and took those ports;
I'm 70% confident I could expell Hydey from my land but when I asked Markus for help I got none;
I had helped Markus out but he was obviously hoping Hydey would wipe me out while he cranked up infrasrtucture and got new techs - Markus is an ally from hell!
Cavalry is the main unit of the day;
So I decided to do a deal with Hydey to SAVE ME FROM HAVING A WAR (I do NOT concede I would lose it);
This deal also helped out Hydey's ally, Makeo who was having a rough time but fighting well in Markus SW;
I'll post a map shortly;
The deal was I let Hydey use my rail to get to Antium - Markus Wonder city;
I gave him Engineers and units as backup;
Hydey took Antium!

Markus wants to retire but I hope his good sportsmanship as shown many a time will prevail. He's still good enough to win this game.

So, the best thing is to continue from here but cancel ALL alliances.

[markusf]

There is no chance in hell i will play this game. I thought no unit gifting etc was allowed. As far as i am concerned you cheated. There is no way hydy would have taken my city had i known you where giving him units. He lost all his units on my city then you gave him more so you could take it. I had 6 alpine troops that defended against 30 some attacking units. i had 23 more of those i could have moved in + 50 conscripts. I didn't give you any units because i didn't have any and b you posted it wouldn't be allowed. You do this every game, soon as your losing you try to twist the rules as much as you can, or make deals that aren't in the spirit of the game. You built the railroad, gifted the units on the same turn so they could move 2 times, hydy was then able to complete the railroad and he moved close to 40 or 50 units along your railroad. I don't even understand how you could possible defend your actions moving engineers 2 times is cheating even if unit gifting is allowed!. Also all you had to do was send out one ship and attack his and it would have been over.

[deity]

Backstabbing IS part of the game play!

Another thing I want to make quite clear Markus is that I don't begrudge you for backstabbing me by getting Hydey to attack me so I don't see why you get upset when I do the same to you?????

The whole civ concept revolves around this sort of thing.

You gotta admit it - we pulled off a good manouver.. I thought you'd appreciate this!

You made a strategic error in the game and paid the price.... it's all in the game.

It's NOT 3 on 1. It's just that at this point you fell on your own sword. I had a temporary truce with my enemy - Hydey, that's all.

[markusf]

Re: Backstabbing IS part of the game play!

Originally posted by deity
Another thing I want to make quite clear Markus is that I don't begrudge you for backstabbing me by getting Hydey to attack me so I don't see why you get upset when I do the same to you?????

The whole civ concept revolves around this sort of thing.

You gotta admit it - we pulled off a good manouver.. I thought you'd appreciate this!

You made a strategic error in the game and paid the price.... it's all in the game.

It's NOT 3 on 1. It's just that at this point you fell on your own sword. I had a temporary truce with my enemy - Hydey, that's all.

strategic error? It was against the rules you POSTED. Hell had i known that you just ignor the rules when they don't suit you i would have played differently to.! As for backstabbing you what are you talking about? he was attacking you the whole time already. I just told him to attack your bigger cities. You cheated admit it.

[deity]

Originally posted by markusf
There is no chance in hell i will play this game. I thought no unit gifting etc was allowed. As far as i am concerned you cheated. There is no way hydy would have taken my city had i known you where giving him units. He lost all his units on my city then you gave him more so you could take it. I had 6 alpine troops that defended against 30 some attacking units. i had 23 more of those i could have moved in + 50 conscripts. I didn't give you any units because i didn't have any and b you posted it wouldn't be allowed. You do this every game, soon as your losing you try to twist the rules as much as you can, or make deals that aren't in the spirit of the game. You built the railroad, gifted the units on the same turn so they could move 2 times, hydy was then able to complete the railroad and he moved close to 40 or 50 units along your railroad. I don't even understand how you could possible defend your actions moving engineers 2 times is cheating even if unit gifting is allowed!. Also all you had to do was send out one ship and attack his and it would have been over.

I absolutely promise you Markus that I gifted Hydey the units BEFORE I could have moved them. Absolutely true!
I was very careful about this cos I knew it was wrong to move tyhem twice in one game turn. Hopefully the saves will show this. The rail system was complete the turn before I ceded the Engineers.

[markusf]

You want me to post screenshots?

1300 AD on my turn. You had 11 caverary 1300 AD mid Germans turn. you have 6 cavelery (all these units drew support from hydy's closest town). hydy then used those units to attack me. If he hadn't used those my city wouldn't have fallen. If moving units 2 times a turn isn't cheating then what is? In all you gifted close to 20 units that moved that way. And after antium fell you gifted 4 conscripts and 1 alpine troop. Again they moved all the way into my land and fortified in antium.

[Bird]

lol, sounds like a great game. Deity, you're on shaky ground, though, if you the quote is accuracte.

[deity]

A map...

Hydey is in the far NW;
I'm the Greeks in the North;
Markus is Roman;
Makeo is Aztec (as usual)

[deity]

Originally posted by Bird
lol, sounds like a great game. Deity, you're on shaky ground, though, if you the quote is accuracte.

Cavebear wrote that - I just copied it from the other thread!

[deity]

I DID gift units - I did NOT move them...

Originally posted by markusf
You want me to post screenshots?

1300 AD on my turn. You had 11 caverary 1300 AD mid Germans turn. you have 6 cavelery (all these units drew support from hydy's closest town). hydy then used those units to attack me. If he hadn't used those my city wouldn't have fallen. If moving units 2 times a turn isn't cheating then what is? In all you gifted close to 20 units that moved that way. And after antium fell you gifted 4 conscripts and 1 alpine troop. Again they moved all the way into my land and fortified in antium.

I DID gift units - I did NOT move them... there was no need - they were all in towns on the rail.

[markusf]

Originally posted by deity


Cavebear wrote that - I just copied it from the other thread!

just a reminder for our group but too late to change the alliance thing


You added that comment!. Whenever i tried to do stuff like city bribing etc you said it was illegal because those where cavebears rules. You can't have it both ways.

[markusf]

Re: I DID gift units - I did NOT move them...

Originally posted by deity



I DID gift units - I did NOT move them... there was no need - they were all in towns on the rail.

Some of them where moved 2 times in one turn after you gifted them. others you couldn't do that with. Hydy wasted all his units on my city and then needed more. So you gifted units that where in your cities (about 13 that i can see), the computer then placed them on the nearest square and hydy used them to attack me. Now what exactly is the difference between gifting a unit in a city and moving a unit and gifting it? either way the unit is moved 2 times in a single turn. ie it has to get out of the city, then hydy has to moved it down to my cap to attack.

[deity]

Cavebears first set of rules...

Originally posted by markusf


just a reminder for our group but too late to change the alliance thing


You added that comment!. Whenever i tried to do stuff like city bribing etc you said it was illegal because those where cavebears rules. You can't have it both ways.

Cavebear initially posted no unit or city bribe and the rest was up to us.... the other SUGGESTIONS came later, well after we had alliances.

However you do have a point - there is definitely ambiguity about what our group agreed on and I honestly didn't think about it, particularly when I asked you for unit support. You said no but you didn't say it was NOT allowed. You are just using this now to justify a position.

It's really unfair to use words like 'cheat'.

At worst it's misunderstanding.....

[markusf]

even if unit gifting was allowed(which it wasn't), the way you gifted them definately wouldn't be!. You can't move units 2 times in one turn, or worse yet gift them to someone else while they are moving, so they can use the units to attack.