Comparison fight US Apolyton vs. German league.

[jes]

strat, ok, thats another thing.
cobra wrote the the words at the beginning to.. (dont know the expression in english) ..to find apolyton players. its not that we think we are the greatest. in no setting.

the other argument: we play 1x1x diety cause we are weak in 2x2x king. you know, i play all settings. but the setting i love most is 1x1x deity, beat me for that, but so it is.
so please dont say what the reasons are we (or: i) do that and not another thing. i could say much about yours and other players' psychology, cause thats my profession. but i dont do that, cause im here to play civ, not to talk about others (and blame them evry now and then).
you are a great player, i often said that. but this isnt the place to discuss. lets come back to the topic.

[War4ever]

strat , i dont think you can claim that if others cannot....seems hypocritical to me.....

and you want games where you can see the starting locations etc etc....how many special rules do you need to perfect this so called strategy

i have no doubt in my mind your a great player.....but your settings are so precise and your maps are so "set" that i question your ability to handle random maps now... ]

after all, exploration is part of the game, as is the random factor, as are barbs, attacking, etc etc....

maybe in team games your the best , or in any game where you get multiple close islands etc etc, but then again, i know many players who could do the same thing in the same amount of time...

adapting..... need i say more ????

[atawa]

Originally posted by War4ever
strat , i dont think you can claim that if others cannot....seems hypocritical to me.....

Prove him wrong then

[War4ever]

its not about proving him wrong, he wants such a controlled environment... its not really a civ game anymore.... hes taken all the luck out of the game and set up a viable trade strategy...

if i practiced all my civ games on premade maps with set criteria i could claim greatest in the world too....

in no way am i slamming his abilities, we all know of his greatness (he is the 8 time gameleague champ after all) but i think he has too many restrictions .....

plus his turns take forever

[StrategicKingMi]

Again, been there done that. I have played and succeded on every setting imaginable.
Why do I like the settings I play now? Because the game, properly played by all players will be fantastic.
I dont play it to win, I play it because I hope to find that player that can keep it competitive till 1000 bc so we can fight with tanks, marines, fighters, bombers, battleships and subs instead of horses and caravels.
A "normal" game will never get there. How do I know?
I have played thousands of normal games and never built a fighter yet.
As far as adapting. I prefer to adapt to new weapon tactics such as i did in my latest game with Martin, who by the way is so close to being this player.
If the game would set up the board interesting and fairly there would be no need for premade boards.

[War4ever]

strat i agree with you, the random map blows big time....

but premade maps are used over and over again...so i question their fairness or the thrill of exploration
but i like some of the "luck"
i can live without huts but prefer them,
but i love barbs. they keep civers honest and force them to defend, i see no skill in stumbling across some empty city...sorry no offence....

i want to take that city by force..

how long do your games take to get to the point of tanks.... i agree getting there can be tough, mainly due to the fact that one or two players have huge leads in MP games....

but by not having war before 1000 bc you play the same repetitive thing over again..
yes modern units are fun but at the expense of what????

its fair enough for you to claim your the greatest, and on your settings you probably are....but to me the greatest thing in civ is being able to adapt to your surroundings game in , game out, not relying on the same tired strategy .

we may play on rocks, i would love to make the board bigger, but the terrain is always differnt and so are your neighbors etc.....we have alot of early contact and wars, and they often come with pike/cat combos
or gunpowder/canon/rifle units....sometimes dragoons and calvalry.

yes this isn't modern, but fighting throughout the whole games seems more enjoyable to me..

i guess its a difference of opinion

[StrategicKingMi]

If played quickly, you can play for 3 or 4 hours and get to 1000 bc. This is the beauty of not having to build units to explore early, the game moves along extremely fast. My turns take an average of less then 5 mins.
As far as responding to your surroundings, When another civ is armed with all this tech and has his own unique combination of wonders and sends his units out in various numbers in certain areas of the board, it is very intense to be able to meet the challenge imposed by the workings of a devious human mind. You must try certain tactics to try to break through the other players defenses while still maintaing your defensive position.
The game is never the same.
In the first part of the game, you must respond to shifting supply and demand. Balancing wonder building, city construction, infrastrucure such as aquas/sewers, unis, libr. markets and temps and colleseums and roading and then railroading.
In the second part of the game thats when it becomes a true war game, balancing not only the above but now ground, air and naval units.
It is an extremely addictive way to play.
We agree on one thing War, I want to take you out by force, not verse undefended citys. But i disagree with forcing the player to defend every city as it regulates what you can accomplish. I defend my citys far from home figuring that if i can stop you from getting close to them it is by far better then letting vet cannons kil a pop point and the unit and you losing no units.
furthermore, playing my way, you change the important wonders by adding so many more great wonders to the mix.
For example, nobody has ever built shakespheres in a normal game. In this game it is awsome. you stay in democracy, build RRs to that city and rehome about 50 units into that city and then go out and fight with them at no unhappiness problem.
It is a game all about tech, so newtons and obser. are great wonders.(never built in normal games)
Hoover dam is huge. Collusus is very usefull.
The wonders can create many differences in the way you play.
I prefer huts also, i like to hunt them down and get excited by seeing what comes out of them. but the downside is many games are decided not by skill but by the luck of the hut, and if I am going to make an investment of my precious time in a game I do not want to ruin a potentially good game by bad or great hut luck by either me or the other guy. I hate having victories tainted by huts as much as loses caused by them.
and nobody wants to play with my do-over rule that I posted a couple of years back. In which, you get a number of turn do-overs where you ask the game to be saved, open the huts that turn, see what you get and if it is awfull use one of your do-overs and go back to the save. time consuming, but so is ruining a game with awfull huts.

[Hydey]

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi
My turns take an average of less then 5 mins.

Even deity does not take that long in the BC years.

if thats the average and you start the first few moving ne unit and hitting enter (2 seconds) to get the the 5 minute average you must be taking 20 minutes a turn.

[War4ever]

I beg to differ on a few points..namely cops and isssacs...huge in our games......

the time is an issue as well....obviously your earliest bc years don't take much time. but that means the later years do

your hut thing is interesting, but would be abused....... as many other rules are by great players....

again, i don't doubt your skill, but i doubt your beliefs in what you claim is a great civ game....

but too each his own and i am glad you have fun....

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by War4ever
its not about proving him wrong, he wants such a controlled environment... its not really a civ game anymore.... hes taken all the luck out of the game and set up a viable trade strategy...

Spot on. Besides the Germans started this thread to set up 1x1x deity duels predominantly, so anyone wishing to claim greatness should claim it for that, and back it up. But the games with DD probably ended that chance.

[Hydey]

good point doc.

[War4ever]

Strate, i think the biggest complaint most have is that no matter what settings your talking about and you have talked about many, you claim that it is the greatest and requires the most skill.

the game at any level requires skill and choices....and we all tailor our choices around things that make it fun for us and challenging at the same time.

your a great civer, and have brought alot of style and strategy to the game....but remember not everyone shares your views on what the greatest civ game at the moment is....

you can tell by the diversity of the settings that people have their preferences....and challenges are great, but challenges need to have their rules tweaked too.

you talk about time investment, my time is precious too...waiting 15 min a turn in a duel while you move caravans around isn't agood investment of time for me...

EVEN if i were to learn something new from playing you... i like my games fast, not ending fast, but played fast....

we all know this game like the back of our hands..blah blah blah...how hard is it to move a couple of units or send some vans etc....

do you prework cities on your turn??? b/c that slows the game down?

we need to play ....i would love to disect one of your games

[StrategicKingMi]

In 1 x 1 deity, turns might take a min or less but it takes 10 turns to = what you get done in 1 turn of my prefered game. thus any way you slice it, it takes much less time to play then a 1 x 1 deity game that might get to this point.
I choose this type of game, not because it is supurior to any other style, but rather that it allows a quick move through the tech tree and combat with modern day units, and a large force of them at that.
When I say a "normal" I refer to 2 x 2 king duels primarily, and only on games I have been a part of or saves I Have been sent by my friends. (sad isnt it)
I am still just posting here waiting to find someone who might be interested in this type of game, and using the failed tactic of goating players into a game, but Ill keep trying cause it usually spices up an Apolyton thread and gets 70 responses.....

[StrategicKingMi]

War, we have played a game. I am 1 and 0 verse you, but I believe the game ended mostly due to huts. I would be happy to play your way (as long as it isnt 1 x 1 deity) set a time, Ill be there.....

[War4ever]

yeah.... your hut luck was the deciding factor, but when i went over the saves, i saw your skill

your a great player....maybe we can get a game going sometime ...do you have icq, i have your number or old one IIRC..but never see you on?