1893 Session - Vice President's Report.

[cavebear]

Originally posted by SCG
Why combined arms over robotics? (paratroopers vs howitzers) - is that a defensive choice against tech theft? I'll look over the save and try and get a City Manager's report out tomorrow perhaps

Expecting either Plastics or Laser, I was annoyed at the choices showing neither. Initially deciding on Robotics, I thought of the discussions suggesting that we should not worry about long-term benefits at this stage of the game. Manufacturing Plants are not cheap to build. Also, I was not anxious to provide the possibility of Howitzer technology being stolen and used against us. We do not need them, but it could be very damaging to us if the AIs traded it around.

Finding we are more attacked locally now, I considered that a versitile weapon might be more useful. So I changed it to Combined Arms for the Helicopters.

I did try to think about the options carefully. We may well be happy to have the Helicopters available soon. I am perhaps more cautious and defensive-minded than others.

[Ben Kenobi]

cavebear:

Helicopters will be more useful than Howitzers, considering the naval combat arena, so your choice gets from a military perspective.

As for the poll, somebody post, or I will post anyways.

[H Tower]

science is in charge of the size of the spaceship? this is news to me! cavebear, you seem to know more about SS building than I do, could you post the poll please?

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
It's so much easier to post a save file!
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SG(2)

Asked and answered, many times, you Git.

The Demo Game mimics modern "democracies" in that the ppl elect representatives (Pres, VP, cabinet in this case). Those representatives communicate game status to the ppl, post polls, and make recommendations Based On The Will Of The PPL to the President prior to the next session of play.

For this to work, there needs to be a hierarchy of information. The ppl see what is government deems they should, and the politicking begins from there.

Besides, if saves were posted for all, there'd be uncontrolled cheating and playing ahead. This game has honor, and the agreed structure of the govt. is an important part of that.

Thank you.
(+1)

[atawa]

Originally posted by cavebear


Expecting either Plastics or Laser, I was annoyed at the choices showing neither. Initially deciding on Robotics, I thought of the discussions suggesting that we should not worry about long-term benefits at this stage of the game. Manufacturing Plants are not cheap to build. Also, I was not anxious to provide the possibility of Howitzer technology being stolen and used against us. We do not need them, but it could be very damaging to us if the AIs traded it around.

Finding we are more attacked locally now, I considered that a versitile weapon might be more useful. So I changed it to Combined Arms for the Helicopters.

I did try to think about the options carefully. We may well be happy to have the Helicopters available soon. I am perhaps more cautious and defensive-minded than others.

I'd rather have the AI equiped with howies then helicopters, while AI usualy send out helicopters and let them wonder around shooting anything in sight (including transports ) It never plans an invasion using multiple howies.

[Hydey]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
* MrWhereItsAt waves arms impotently in face of information that is probably highly useful if it could be seen in the save

Give it a rest will ya

*Hydey relaxed in the knowledge the people have elected a good cabinate to finish off the game*

[cavebear]

Originally posted by atawa


I'd rather have the AI equiped with howies then helicopters, while AI usualy send out helicopters and let them wonder around shooting anything in sight (including transports ) It never plans an invasion using multiple howies.

You might well be correct. I don't have much experience with AIs at the Howitzer stage. I considered it pretty much a toss of the coin. In retrospect, I probably should have chosen Robotics so we could get Stealth if we wanted it. And maybe we *will* wish we had the Manufacturing Plants.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Besides, if saves were posted for all, there'd be uncontrolled cheating and playing ahead. This game has honor, and the agreed structure of the govt. is an important part of that.

I don't think we wanted a State of the Union Address.
I only commented that it was easier to post a save file.

As to your allegations about playing ahead and cheating I prefer to follow the words of Winston Churchill. "Trust the People"

It may come as a surprise to you Jrabbit - but I do trust the folk here on Apolyton.

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SG(2)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Looks good

Where are we now in moving towards the next set of turns? Has the VP taken care of the Trade Minister's duties, or should I rush home in a panic and open the save file?

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
It may come as a surprise to you Jrabbit - but I do trust the folk here on Apolyton.
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SG(2)

As do I. And I'm sure you'll similarly trust our faith in the established hierarchy.

[cavebear]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits


I don't think we wanted a State of the Union Address.
I only commented that it was easier to post a save file.

That's too disingenuous a statement. A lot of things we know not to do would be "easier". It would be easier to win by cheating for example. Or we could let everyone play the a session and then choose the version most successful. And it would be easier to replay turns until the results made the future turns "easiest". "Easier" isn't the point of the game.

As to your allegations about playing ahead and cheating I prefer to follow the words of Winston Churchill. "Trust the People"

I prefer "trust, but verify" - Reagan. Or "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" - Franklin.

It may come as a surprise to you Jrabbit - but I do trust the folk here on Apolyton.

I remember the "cheating" debates of a few years ago. And how many people defended it (indeed, some gloried in it). Mainly though,I do not agree with leaving temptations around if they can be avoided.

My prime concern over giving everyone the save file is that it is too easy to look ahead in the game and then make suggestions for future play based on that knowledge. At least the Ministers have something to lose if they do that (their positions). I think of that as a "check and balance" kind of thing.

I doubt that any regular participant of the Civ2 Demo games would risk that. But there are a lot of "drive-by" members who would not face that concern.

Lastly, I will mention that even some well-intentioned participants have occassionally explored where they should not. I don't blame them in any way because they have immediately recognized the error. But the fewer errors of that sort, the better. And those were players determined *not* to cheat.

I will not willingly toss temptation in people's paths.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by cavebear
I'm working on them now (at the office, don't tell anyone)...

cavebear

My original comment was prompted by you having to post a long series of screenshots whilst at work! uhm "Trust, but verify" ... is your boss like Reagan?

The simple save file provides all the information the people in a Democracy need to make choices about the future. That is easy. It is also honest. Provide the voters the full story not just a selection of pictures which look good!

Having played Succession/Comparison Games for a few years I have never encountered a situation where a lurker has attempted to sabotage play by posting details that were obtained by cheating. That is the reason I trust the Civ 2 gang. Even if a "drive-by" wrecker did appear are you telling me that the folk on this forum would not be capable of ignoring the incident? (After arranging a trip to Mingapulco for the offender. ) Civ 2 players are a cool and mature population.

What you seem to have at the moment is a Communist Game. The same old faces swapping positions, elections with one candidate and no freedom of information.

Democracy flourishes upon lively and informed debate.
Perhaps you would attract more participants if the lurkers could access a game and begin to join in a democratic debate.

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SG(2)

[H Tower]

give it a rest scouse, the people don't want the save given out, so it won't be given out. we had the debate, the poll, and the discussion already, it's done. Not to mention, this isn't the place to be talking about realising the save, we have another thread for that here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=79417 This thread is for discussing the turns just played by cavebear.

If you want to be able to play the game after we're done, i've been saving all of the save files and will post them after we finish up.

[atawa]

SG2 has a couple of good points though.

It might not be a bad idea to repoll on this before we start the next game.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mainly though,I do not agree with leaving temptations around if they can be avoided.

Well said Cavebear.

BTW SG- if you don't like the folks in power, run and topple us.

Some of us will even step aside in the face of an emperor with your extensive knowledge.

I know I would.