Science Ministry's Observations, Recommendations, and Poll.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

It's 1880.

A few people have made the comment that it would be nice to get to 2 turns/tech. Well, we're close...

We produce 1233 beakers/turn. The next tech requires 2698 beakers - to get 2 turns/tech we need 116 additional beakers per turn (for this tech, anyway - beaker cost increases with each new tech you acquire, thus my argument against stealing techs which are currently unnecessary).

We can get Rocketry in 2 turns most simply by delivering Freights for around 250 g next turn - that should push us far enough to get Rocketry in 1882.

The other obvious alternative is to build Universities in St. Pratski, Avila, Seville and Valencia - that approach, once complete, would produce 134 more beakers/turn, based on current numbers for those cities.

The Science Ministry prefers the Freight approach for a few reasons:

- we already have some commodity freights to deliver, while the Universities would require a change in the build queues.

- the Universities probably would not be ready for a few turns, while Freights can be delivered more or less immediately.

- Freights are more flexible. If we really wanted, we could accelerate to 1 tech/turn by delivering a LOT of Freight (incrementally rushbuying demanded goods). On the other hand, eventually the extra beakers from the Universities won't be enough to produce 1 tech/2 turns, as the beaker cost per tech increases.

- Finally, the Freight approach will also produce extra cash, allowing us to rushbuy other needed improvements/units. The ideal would be to use the cash to rushbuy more Freights, thus creating a self-sustaining process - and generating a LOT of science and cash.

Please discuss, and vote in the poll:

[H Tower]

does SETI put a research facility in every city, or just the ones with universities?

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I thought it was just those with Universities, but I've been corrected in another thread here

SETI definitely acts as a Research Lab in all cities, even those without Universities(or Libraries). However, building a Uni still adds 50% science, IIRC.

[SCG]

I'd love to see more things incrementally produced. Freight especially, but just about anything moves the build queue along. I'm not sure how feasible that would be though. Our Illustrious President doesn't seem to have much enthusiasm for round-by-round micromanagement. Without incremental buying on the intervening rounds (and optimizing workers for each build project or celebration), that makes things like univerities more viable, not to mention leaving the luxury rate at 30% and building CfC so the pres can just let more cities grow, indirectly producing more Science

[SCG]

SETI increases every city's science. so with SETI already, building a university in cities with a library, it would increase the base by 50% - which would be a 25% net increase over what is produced right now

Example - city produces 50 beakers base.
SETI = 50% = 25 beakers
Library = 50% = 25 beakers
--------------
total = 100 beakers.
adding a university would increase an additional 25 beakers, or a 25% net bonus over current production
Total = 125 beakers

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Incrementally producing Caravans/Freight is pretty easy - it's only 50 shields. Incrementally buying other things becomes a hassle. If we were in Fundy, it'd be easy to rush 20 shield Fanatics and then our 30+ shield cities would finish in 1 turn.

Otherwise I guess we could do a rushed Spy and then let a 20+ shield city finish the Freight. If the Freight provides a 180+ g payoff, it pays for itself, if my memory serves. For less shield-rich cities, we could let the city spend a turn adding 1 or more shields to the build box, then next turn rush to Spy, buy 10 more shields to Engineer, buy 10 more to Freight - takes 2 turns but might save a bit of cash.

At the very least our bigger cities could produce 1 Freight/2 turns, either naturally or by incremental rushbuying. That could give us 4-8 Freights/turn, enough to get the science flowing faster.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by SCG
SETI increases every city's science. so with SETI already, building a university in cities with a library, it would increase the base by 50% - which would be a 25% net increase over what is produced right now

Example - city produces 50 beakers base.
SETI = 50% = 25 beakers
Library = 50% = 25 beakers
--------------
total = 100 beakers.
adding a university would increase an additional 25 beakers, or a 25% net bonus over current production
Total = 125 beakers

Are you sure the increase applies only to base science? I thought Lib/Univ/Lab were 50% cumulative bonus.

e.g. 50 beakers
Library boosts to 75 (50 x1.5)
University+Library boosts to 112 (75 x 1.5)
Lab+Uni+Library boosts to 168 (112 x 1.5)

or am I mistaken

[SCG]

I'm sure - actual tests are consistant with the description under research labs in the civilopedia - having all 3 increase the base by 150%. Its also consistant with the concept of base trade arrows used for freight deliveries (even if i've not got it working yet) - now if i just had a decent spreadsheet program instead of that misnomer MS Works...

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by SCG
I'm sure - actual tests are consistant with the description under research labs in the civilopedia - having all 3 increase the base by 150%. Its also consistant with the concept of base trade arrows used for freight deliveries (even if i've not got it working yet) - now if i just had a decent spreadsheet program instead of that misnomer MS Works...

OK then

All the more reason to deliver Freights, then... the actual beaker effect of building Universities is lessened.

[SCG]

simple way to remind yourself if you forget - set tax to 50% and find a city with 2 science structures (we have many with just libraries and SETI) - for an even trade arrows, the science beakers should equal the trade arrows

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by SCG
simple way to remind yourself if you forget - set tax to 50% and find a city with 2 science structures (we have many with just libraries and SETI) - for an even trade arrows, the science beakers should equal the trade arrows

Thanks

I seldom build Universities these days except in my SSC - so never needed to learn the multiplier. Freight tends to be a lot more efficient.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'll second SGP on the 50% increase to base science for Universities.

Let's start rolling those freights to up our science rate to finish the spaceship.

The faster we finish, the less we have to worry about those Mongols.

I also vote for Nuclear Fission- let's stay on the path people.

BTW- shouldn't spaceflight be available as well with Rocketry and Computers?

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

@ obiwan - Space Flight is the second last option on the list.

I voted for Mobile Warfare, and I'll explain why.

IIRC we're going to need Robotics eventually, in order to get Superconductor. Moreover, since we don't seem to be a nation of rushbuyers, we'll need to get some Manufacturing Plants put in place in order to build Spaceship parts efficiently (ideally, we want cities producing 40+ shields).

Space Flight doesn't do much for us on its own, except give the AI a chance to steal it.

[SCG]

just an observation on the tax rate - we are getting essentially 2-turn discoveries right now - We need 2698 beakers, and as the save is, we are making 1233 as the save. City planner suggestions make it 1271 (give or take a couple celebration plans). We have 2 freights I've proposed for delivery that can be delivered right now (demanded gems to Avila, demanded Oil to Valencia), for which I'd be a bit surprised if they don't net at least 400. Also, with CfC, and selected structures we might come close to 1 tech per round by the start of the next cabinet meeting if we can maintain our ferry layout and add a couple more transports

[cavebear]

The science ehancements (Library, University, Research Labs) are working cumulatively from the base. Each and every one adds the same. So it is valuable to get the least expensive ones in each city. SETI was great, because it added a Research Lab in every city at a modest per/city cost. But we don't want to ignore the remaining Libraries and Universities either. They will add 50% of the base to each individual city. A University is just as valuable to a city after SETI as it was before.

So, while our technology advances, we still have cities that should have Libraries, Marketplaces, etc as investments in the future. At this stage of the game, it is natural to think only in terms of the latest possible infrastructures, but we stiull need to let the smaller cities get the core structures built.

It doesn't pay off in the short-term, but it will 5 sessions from now.