Sparta-Morgan "relations" Part II

[Googlie]

Well, the 8 was a bit arbitrary anyway (the range of our MMI-enhanced cruisers)

I'd be in favor of cutting back to a 6-tile zone. That way it's in range of both our cruisers and foils

That gives us adequate coverage everywhere - east and west coast

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Googlie
That gives us adequate coverage everywhere - east and west coast

"Adequate coverage" does not scare people. Neither does it give enough protection by our patrolling vessels. With only 6 tiles, a Cruiser hull (soon to be theirs, whether we like it or not) can come close for a 2-turn approach (get in and hide, then get out of hiding and strike) much easier than with the 8-tile zone. A 6-tile zone would soon make such attacks possible with Foils, and that is not nice at all. I though the idea was to be able to do as we please well before any threat emerges. Well, having anyone make two stops in our waters before an attack is definately something I appreciate.

Why is an agreement for the Morgan coastal waters not acceptable, again?

[Googlie]

Well, IMO there's "reasonable bullying" and "unreasonable intransigence"

And 8 tiles is verging on the unreasoinable (we might as well declare the entire ocean ours - we'll sink any vessel we find anywhere

When we postulated the Doctrine, at that time we were open to negotaition as to its severity - why not now, when we're weaker?

It's not just their coastal waters they want access to and from - they want to send vessels exploring, and if every time they move they run the risk of breaching an exclusion zone that they don't even know about (they still don't have our maps) then the game ceases to be fun and we'll see defections from their team

It's a fine line we play beytween bullying, backing down to give breathing room, and intransigence, and I just feel that 8-tiles is intransigent, arbirtary as it was at the time

Mead PM'd me to express concern that we're stifling the game, and I agree

I'll bow to the wishes of the team in this, but as a past CMN I fully see his point

G.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Googlie
When we postulated the Doctrine, at that time we were open to negotaition as to its severity - why not now, when we're weaker?

We are not weaker. We still possess about the only credible navy on Chiron, and the strongest air force along with it. But you are right—we were open to negotiations. So, what price shall we ask for making the prohibited zone smaller?

Originally posted by Googlie
Mead PM'd me to express concern that we're stifling the game, and I agree

That is sad, and sometimes our motives might indeed seem "unreasonable" in some way. So, as long as it stays Spartan enough, and does not weaken us too much, we can consider negotiations. Just remember that bullying is an important part of overall strategy for us.

A general comment on the status of other teams. Our position has been strong for a while now, and not showing signs of weakening—more like growing more unstoppable with every turn. So, we are the strongest contender for a win, by whatever means. People are beginning to see this, and some leave because of it. Now, your good will is nice, Googlie, and I understand good sportsmanship. But I still prefer winning over good will. If we play too nice, we might still lose the game. So please, let us not do that.

[Googlie]

I don't disagree that we are playing to win, but let's not forget that this is a democracy game, born of the original one.

Some criticized ACDG2 as being too much like a regular individual PBEM (originally Archaic unilaterally made all the University turns and Buster made all the Drone ones), so ACDG3 was conceived as a compromise between the 2 styles - a lot of roleplay like ACDG01 had, but by removing co-operative victory, winning playstyles were rewarded.

For me, winning is almost secondary. The game is fun, and I've learned a ton from it, veteran though I consider myself to be. And I've enjoyed the artwork, the naming conventions, the strategy discussions, etc etc.

And, for the record, I don't think we are now unstoppable. In fact, if any faction is, it might be Morgan. Their airforce now dwarfs ours, and they have better defenders now. As soon as they switch from their 70% economy/0% labs to anything approaching normal research rates they'll outstrip us in research - although they might just stay as they are for as long as it takes them and the Gaians to pincer the Hive into submission. After all, they are only a Neural Grafting trade away from clean reactors, and then they can gear up their offensive machine

And i do agree that bullying is in-game Santiago character. but let's not get too carried away (I assume you did take my point - why not just declare Chiron's oceans off-limits to everyone but Sparta and our allies? - 'cos that'd be unreasonable, as well as almost impossible to enfiorce. So what's so magic about 8, except that it's the number that we first put on the table (and even then, it originally was 8 tiles from our coastline - we soon tempered that back to "8 from any Spartan or Protectorate base"

To me, 6 is just as statement-making, and delivers a lot more fun for everyone.

At least that's my considered position, but as I say, I'll bow out of the discussion if the concensus is to stay with 8

[Googlie]

Mead has inquired about the possibility of a split-zone (equidistant from both our factions)

It'd look like this:

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Googlie
Mead has inquired about the possibility of a split-zone (equidistant from both our factions)

It'd look like this:

This is even less than 6 tiles. This is getting ridiculous!

Did you ask a price, any price for our possible concessions?

Can you either post the PMs, or ask Mead to use the embassy? I feel like we are missing some points here.

[vishniac]

I won't take position about the 8-tile question but I'm backing Modo on this one.
WHAT? The game's not funny anymore because we enforce the Modo Doctrine? Too bad for them! But it's their job to find a way to turn the corner and find the solution, be it brute force, negociations or alternate strategy.
I remember we said once that we apply the Modo Doctrine because we can enforce it and would be ready to consider others with sea-rights when they'll get a navy.
This game has so many possibilities that I can't even understand what they say: we stifle the game?!?
At the very least, they just have to rush their first satellite and they'll know our borders, and much more. Or ask the Angels for the world map. Or steal it from Lal or God knows what!

Now, there are a lot of negociations options:
-- We give them (for a good price, of course) the coordinates of our shore-tiles and thus they'll know where the Doctrine is applying.
-- Open Seas: we propose (for a ...) that they'll send recon vessels to map our shore (with agreement when and how)
-- we can agree to let them sea-roads (permanent or provisonal) to let their naval convoys pass .
-- As said, we can tighten the 8-tile zone to 6 or something else.

[Googlie]

originally posted by Modo

Can you either post the PMs, or ask Mead to use the embassy? I feel like we are missing some points here

*************************************************

Here's the exchange:

Mead to Googlie

Googlie

I've had difficulty getting into the embassy lately.

Although I haven't got into the embassy lately and haven't looked at the map lately either, I note that the unmodified Modo doctrine would extend into our territorial waters (and even our landmass).

Is that your intention? If so, it'll stifle the game and players will lose interest quickly

Please let me or AndId know through PM.

Mead

Googlie to Mead:

I have put a proposal to the Junta that we scale back our doctrine to be 6 tiles from a land base. that would give us the protection we think we need as well as giving you clear egress from your ports

Mead to Googlie

Are you going to continue to build or capture towards us?

What happens then?

Can we have a division line where we divide the distance between our respective bases in half, with each half being the territorial waters of the side closest to it?

Mead

Googlie's reply to Mead

(re; the "build or capture" question)

I think it will play out that we'll see a vessel in our "no-go" zone when we open the turn, and will query its intent from the transgressor.

If we are satisfied as to its reason for being there, it'll be allowed to proceed unharmed (although some oficers are suggesting a "safety fee" much like the AI does in-game).

If we are not satisfied then I guess it will be captured or destroyed

(I'm not sure what the Junta would do if a "target of opportunity" presented itself - say a transport with an AA in it)

As to the "build" question - we are assessing our chances of winning by Transcendence - although the odds greatly favour you, then the Angels. We'd need to invest heavily in the University (hence our "Protectorate contact"concerns) for us to have a chance

And we assume that at some point the Hive will sneak-attack us - he has over 20 units within a couple of tiles of 2 of our bases, albeit in his own territory

(re: the "split-zone" demarcation line between our continents}

I'll put the suggestion to the Junta. Some have already asked what recompense Morgan might offer in exchange for dropping our exclusion zone from 8 to 6 tiles, to allow egress from your westcoast base(s), so I doubt if a 4-tile zone would fly. But you never know.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
Mead PM'd me to express concern that we're stifling the game, and I agree

IIRC factions also complained we were stifling the game back when we weren't generous in tech trades. Yet now they have achieved technological parity with us by other means. So I don't fully understand their concern. It's not like they're a dog half-beaten to death with nowhere to go or nothing to do. As you say yourself, the Corporation still is in the running. And Mead's comment here "The game is not over yet" might be interpreted they're just waiting their time to get back at us at the earliest opportunity. (Spartan paranoia here )


For the record though, personally I don't have a strong opinion regarding the Modo Doctrine.

For a possible compromise that allows the Corporation breathing room and us security, how about making a difference between zones where ships are allowed. and zones where aircraft are allowed? We could each have an exclusion zone where the other one's ships are not allowed. And besides that also a zone where both factions' aircraft can fly over to patrol.

As a possible compensation, how about an official Corporate promise that they're not allowed to build non-SAM aircraft? That limits their offensive capability, and gives us security.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
It's not just their coastal waters they want access to and from - they want to send vessels exploring, and if every time they move they run the risk of breaching an exclusion zone that they don't even know about (they still don't have our maps) then the game ceases to be fun and we'll see defections from their team

Oh bugger. They don't have our map? Are you sure?

I thought the Corporation had it, based on some comment made in the Planetary Conference thread. After all, they have been pacted with the University for a year.
I included that election map showing our continents in the last Phalanx, thinking that it was a nice graphical addition, and thinking that I wasn't giving away anything important. Only the Gaians would learn something new, and who cares about them anyway?


Btw, on this screenshot you show our exclusion zone not to include the Styx Straits. May I suggest to change that? The Corporation has no business in the Arcadian Ocean aka Mare Nostrum.

[Googlie]

Not to worry:

Actually, I'm not sure that they don't have our maps - after all, we did find the Hunter hiding in the fungus just outside GH, so they knew that base was there

And based on Mead's comments, it looks as though they have some knowledge of our western shoreline, if not our actual base locations (as we do with the Angels)

So the balance of probability is that they do have our map

[Modo44]

Sooo... do we have a price for making the no-swim zone smaller (6 tiles flat, everywhere)? Do you think they will agree to build defensive aircraft only? It would be nice of them, but I believe it is too much (think about their other problem—Yang). Maybe we need to come up with a fallback possibility? A small yearly fee, perhaps?

[Googlie]

Or maybe their support for our run at Governor next election?

in fact, we could throw that in as well with any Plan Econ deal to the A's, G's as well as Morgan

[Googlie]

Hmm - this properly belongs here (posted by mistake in the Angels thread):

Proposed Bilateral amendment to the MoDo Doctrine between the Federation and the Corporation

WHEREAS:

• The Corporation agrees to pay to the Federation the sum of 250 energy credits

and

• the Corporation undertakes not to trade Planetary Economics to any third party

and

• The Corporation agrees not to build the Secret project, the Cyborg Factory

and

• the Corporation acknowledges the right of the Federation to be the sole means of the Corporation contacting the Unibversity, however such contact is initiated

then in recognition of these undertakings:

• The Federation agrees to a sea border between the Federation and the Corporation, and the University and the Corporation equidistant between the two respective continents in question

and

• The Federation will transmit the technology of Planetary Economics to the Corporation

and

• The Federation undertakes not to build the Secret Project the Ascetic Virtues