Sparta-Gaian Relations part II

[Kassiopeia]

I have sent the message as detailed above to Chaos Theory, and I've also asked both parties for clarification on the issue you've brought up, Googlie. I think I even understood what you meant, after reading the sentence through a few times.

[Snoddasmannen]

I have some bad feelings regarding this tech trade. If we do give them eco-eng preaccepted they have the possibility to completely rip us off, and then the Gaian/Angel axis will have been given 3 techs in exchange for adaptive economics (nice deal ).

Wouldn't you all have considered doing this if you were the Gaians? I think the division of the human factions into three parts is quite evident, and I think we're the strongest one. Why shouldn't the others gang up on us?

[Maniac]

Ah, someone who shares my worries.

It's quite obvious the Gaians don't care much about their relations with us. So why shouldn't they betray us after they got EcolEng?

On the other hand, since the Morganites are now in contact with the Angels, EcolEng could indirectly reach the Gaians via them, so it's not like we're giving away an extremely important tech or so (though of course after getting EcolEng the Gaians could always select Doc:Ini instead of IntInt) even if the Gaians would betray us. So from that point of view one could say the possible benefits of getting IntInt earlier outweigh the possible risks of Gaia betraying us.

Still personally I'd recommend not giving the Gaians EcolEng yet this turn. We can use as excuse that we want a specific date when they'll research their next tech before giving the final agreement to the deal. An advantage of this course of action would be that we can see the first Gaian-Angel reactions on our Morgan Industries obliteration next year, and then judge better whether we can trust them to fulfill their part of the deal.


Oh btw for the record, IIRC the Gaians would have 15 techs after getting EcolEng. This means IntInt is currently at stand "2" in the mod3 roulette, and them getting another tech before switching research would make them unable to select IntInt.

For the Angels IIRC they would have 20 techs after getting IntInt. Cyberethics would then be at stand 0 though apparently, meaning they would be unable to select it. So they'd need another tech (such as EcoEng) to be able to select Cyberethics. So perhaps we should ask the Angels whether they're sure they could select Cyberethics after getting IntInt? Chance is they could of course, because they are already scheduled to get EcoEng from Gaia. If they don't though, AFAIK we giving them EcoEng for free wasn't at all part of the agreed upon deal though.

Though perhaps for all security we could ask the Angels to switch to EcolEng if they can't select Cyberethics? That way they can still get the tech from the Gaians or from us (in exchange for other stuff of course).

[Modo44]

I do not share the paranoia toward the Gaians, but they do act weird here. So I think we shoudl not rush giving them the tech.

Well, since they are not sure when they will need it, they will not get it. I mean, this is no way to do a trade. Once they have clearly said when they need EcolEng, we can give it to them. Perhaps even later, if getting it would prohibit them from switching to the promised research goal.

[Googlie]

OK - that answers the last question before finalizing the turn.

I won't send Ecol Eng this turn (maybe put it in the box, on offer, as an "earnest of our intentions", but not pre-accepted - maybe with an "awaiting details" put in the text box?)

[Kassiopeia]

The Gaians respond:

I posted your message soon after receiving it and have not gotten a response from my faction-mates. Thus, I will accurately answer you, to the best of my ability.

Any trade involving trading us Ecological Engineering requires that you send it to us pre-accepted, as we will finish it on our turn. If we cannot come to an agreement regarding its trade by the end of our turn, we will decline the offer, as if it had not been made. I have not carefully followed our trade agreements and have no time to research them now.

As far as attacking us, we have no illusions that you wish to make more enemies than you must, but we are naturally, and understandably, suspicious of such a heavily armed neighbor. Though you would not reasonably attack us now, we fear you may turn on us when it is convenient. Mapping our coast is an obvious prelude to such a turn of events. Accurately analyzing our coast may preclude secrecy, and if you can convince us it was innocuous, your mapping was as good as secret. As far as the timing, we have had much internal upheaval, as you have seen. Mapping our coastline, while threatening, is not our most important concern.

We did notice a stack of Hive units change direction, and were happy about it, but more were behind it. Go ahead and believe what you want about our capabilities for self-defense, but we know that any help from you was accidental. Your bluster, while noted, is not important.

[Kassiopeia]

Did we already post the save? If so, it looks like the Gaian message came in just a bit late. I would have been able to post it in time, if I had been awake at 7 in the morning on a Sunday...

[Kassiopeia]

Hmmm, it looks like the arrangement is a bust. I refuse to have us take any blame for it, didn't we ask them for when they'd get EcolEng quite a while ago already? And all we received was a "we don't know", so we defaulted to not doing anything.

[Modo44]

If Maniac is right, then they might be able to switch without getting the tech. And even if not - that is just a one-turn delay.

This answer seems pretty calm. I really think they often have to give us answers without talking to each other, due to low activity. That might be the reason why they look so jumpy at times.

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
Hmmm, it looks like the arrangement is a bust. I refuse to have us take any blame for it, didn't we ask them for when they'd get EcolEng quite a while ago already? And all we received was a "we don't know", so we defaulted to not doing anything.

Looks like a SNAFU on the Gaian side. Problems with inactivity will do that I guess It's really unfortunate, but there's certainly nothing we can do about it.

[Maniac]

Yep, no one's blaming you Kass.

Originally posted by Modo44
If Maniac is right, then they might be able to switch without getting the tech.

I never said this AFAIK.

And even if not - that is just a one-turn delay.

If I understand their message correctly, they've researched EcolEng already as we speak (as they already have their 2160 turn), meaning leapfrogging is no longer possible.

Btw, Kassiopeia, when you say "The Gaians respond:", is that still Illuminatus, or someone else?

[Kassiopeia]

It's Chaos Theory.

Yep, no one's blaming you Kass.

Ah, and I wasn't expecting you to. I was more talking about the Gaians blaming the ruination of the trade on us. This'll be good ammo the next time they whine about our wrongdoings.

[Googlie]

sent to Kassiopeia by Chaos Theory
Any trade involving trading us Ecological Engineering requires that you send it to us pre-accepted, as we will finish it on our turn. If we cannot come to an agreement regarding its trade by the end of our turn, we will decline the offer, as if it had not been made. I have not carefully followed our trade agreements and have no time to research them now.

if they "finish it in this turn" does that mean that they will have it when they open 2160?

If not, then they can still max out their energy (to get just enough lab points to get it in 1) and we'll send it pre-accepted next turn for them to change to Int Int and return to us (if we trust them - that's why we didn't last turn - lack of trust)

If yes, then its too late

[Kassiopeia]

I've replied to CT asking for a clarification on that and noting that we certainly have not been at fault if they indeed now have researched EcolEng once they have opened the turn.

[Kassiopeia]

CT responds:

I have not yet downloaded the turn, and neither has any other Gaian. I presume you keep end-turn saves, which would make it possible to add EcoEng without altering any already-played portion of the turn. Naturally, this must be done in a fashion that is transparent to the mods.

I still do not know if we had reached an agreement regarding what to trade you for EcoEng. Far more serious than missing a potential tech trade is the seeming lack of activity among Gaians.

I don't like the part about doing it "transparent to the mods". One: There is no way to do it, not without me posting about it here, not at all. Two: it implies cheating.

I'd be willing to appeal to the mods based on Gaian inactivity that they could cut us some slack and let us repost a replayed end turn save that has nothing else changed except this.

Technically they ought to be doing the grovelling part, but I suppose we can leave that as it is and do it ourselves if they really are suffering from inactivity.