The Infotrader/Infiltrator Network - Diplomacy plug-in

[Mart]

Message from Googlie, just read the last paragraph:

To: IT Mart

The Junta is pleased that this deal is going forward.

The technologies of Social Psych and Ethical Calculus will be in the diplo pouch this turn on a pre-accepted basis, and we look forward to receiving Intellectual Integrity in due course.

Your comments re: Morgan's tech rate are apt. We ourselves, currently with the tech lead, have a cost of just under 800 lab points per turn, while Morgan lies at just over 400. Even running at 40:20:40 they still produce more than 80 per turn!! (mind you, we have almost 25 technologies now discovered - or acquired - compared to their 14, so the comparison isn't exactly apples and oranges - they are choosing to research internally while we prefer to trade or purloin our techs!!)

Lt.-Col. Googlie

That was actually for prediction. When their tech cost was about as ours - 240, then dividing by 6 Morganities must have had 40/turn. Now it is twice as much. They have a tech every 5 turns?!!!

Spartans for sure have either infiltration or Pact with Morganities. I think I will ask them in the following message. Morganic economy is just overwhelming. From Googlie's messages I feel Spartans are quite concerned about it. They release quite important information regarding them. All this situation requires appropriate actions from us. efficiency of planning is probably a key issue for us.

[Mart]

Spartans asked for replay. I think that it is reasonable, maybe we will resolve the issue and find the way to switch to Int Int.

I have sent the following by Private message to Drogue and to Method:

Sparta and the Angels have been in diplo negotiaitons re a tech leapfrog based on our understanding of the Rubin techchoice simulator (or whatever its called - it's the excel spreadsheet that predicts what choices will be available for the next tech)

Anyway - after we (Sparta) placed 2 techs pre-accepted for the Angels, the choice that we both believed would appear didn't, and might only appear if we send another tech - maybe 2 - to the Angels.

Would the Mods allow a replay by the Angels with, this time, them not accepting our techs until we can unscramble how the excel sheet screwed up?

I believe that this would be analogous to the "parallel turn" allowance with the AI during dioplomatic exchanges - so long as in the replay the Angels did nothing different from the firast try except for non-accceptance of the offered Sparta techs.

What is the Mod's opinion?

(This message has also been sent to Drogue/Method)

If they concur, then that is one way that we can handle it - treat it as if it were an investigation into a tech trade opportunity with the AI G.(for which replays - or parallel plays - are allowed.

[Mart]

I have found the problem, I think. This was posted in the Spartan Embassy:

The request is reasonable. Also, I think that I have found the problem I had in my spreadsheet. It's my fault and it is about settings. After Hercules checked his file and posted on our forum what he had, and it was in the agreement with what we got, I rechecked mine and found error in settings, so spreadsheet seems to work ok.

Anyway, the solution suggesting that accepting Ethical Calculus first will allow us to research Int Int was right. This is what I got from the spreadsheet after correction. We would have to switch the research in that case loosing some lab points.

There is also in this case a new possibility. That would be to discuss if you are interested. It would speed up things a bit, cuase it appears that if we acquire Doc Initiative, we would not have to loose any lab points and be able to switch to Int Int. That would however require a new agreement between our factions and trading Doc Initiative at this point. Meanwhile, I will ask also other members of Data Angels to confirm the prediction I got. Let us see what Drogue or Method will tell.

I attach the spreadsheet I got after correction of settings, please review it and see if it is right. It shows the situation we are right now in - having both Soc Psych and Ethical Calculus. When Doc Init is researched, we should be able to switch to Int Int. We also do not loose lab points it seems.

If it is correct, I think we might ask Spartans for trading Doc Init to us at this point. Let them embargo it also if they feel it would be needed. We might offer them a technology in the future, when they want it. I can only hope they will not ask for 500 EC in rates with some payment down...

[Mart]

Just a small addition, Maniac suggested at some point releasing a technology which we are currently researching as a compensation in case we would have to loose lab points. It seems that situation is more positive than appeared, cause we were researching Soc Psych, and now when getting Doc Init, we would not loose lab points when switching to Int Int. So compensation would not be required, although if we had not received it we would loose lab points. Quite messy, but it is true. Anyway, Spartans may in this case gain something since we might offer them a technology in the future for Doc: Init, if we choose so. Maybe Adaptive Economics at the moment of their choice? The benefit for us would be just Doc: Initiative.

Hercules, please review the spreadsheet and maybe send a word to Spartans, I think they may not feel quite comfortable about this new prediction having only my observations posted after my recent mistake in setting it up.

[Hercules]

This from Lt Col Googlie:

ACDG3 - the Sparta-Angels Int Int deal

Drogue has refused the replay

The Junta is unwilling to trade Doc: Initiative to any faction at this point, especially in light of our recently promulgated Modo Doctrine. We are prepared to wait the requisite number of years - if need be - for your delivery of Intellectual Integrity

There may be a faster way.

The Angels change research right now to Optical Computers. We will send Opticals in 2153 in exchange for your sending us Adaptive Economics. This then guarantees that Int Int will appear as a choice for the Angels in 2153

We recognize that both techs are not particularly useful to either of our factions at this pont in time - however Opticals does open the possibility that the Angels might beat Morgan to Applied Relativity and the Superconductor

And in recognition of your lost lab points, we would place no onward trading restrictions on Opticals - that might net another technology or some energy credits from your Gaian partners.

[Hercules]

Now this is not a bad idea, except we can't change research to Optical Computers.

The choices we have are Ecol Eng, SotHB, and Non linear.

(if the Gaians had traded Soc Psych, this diversion might not have happened).

As Spartans are unwilling to forward Doc. Ini, I doubt they would be willing to forward Non Linear or Ecol Eng. Also I don't get the feeling they have Ecol Eng or SotHB.

Otoh, if Gaians have SotHB we may be able to rescue things quicker. Though as they are open with us about their tech discoveries as per the agreement, the answer is likely no. Unless they stole some techs from the AI.

So I think we need to know the Gaian's current status with research timings and techs available. #

If all else fails we can cash in our AA in 3/4 years. However if we are not up to speed with everyone else, we are likely to discover an already discovered tech (by another human faction).

[Hercules]

My suggested reply:

Lt Col Googlie,

This is an excellent way out of our situation and we would have recommended it to our fellow Datajacks. Unfortunately Optical Computers is not a tech choice we can research at this time. We can't switch to it.

As Mart indicated earlier we were offered:

Doc:Ini
Ecol Eng
SotHB
Non Linear

We could only switch to one of the other three techs. So unless you have one of the other 3 techs you would be willing to trade to us in order that we could switch to Intel Integ, we can't progress. But both of us would need to be sure that we could switch to Intel Integ at that point. Otherwise it will be the longer route.

yours

Infotrader Hercules

PS. We are investigating with the Gaians if they have acquired, recently any of these techs.

[Method]

The replay request is denied. Carry on.

[Mart]

I have an idea - Spartans will trade Doc :Init under the following conditions:

- We do not trade for indicated number of turns and,
- we do not use it for some number of turns. As not using it I understand not designing any units with it.
- we do not attempt to find "ways around" like allowing others to probe us for this technology.

Would Spartans agree?

[Mart]

I have asked Spartans the following:

Lt. Col. Googlie,

There is also another way, which the Spartan Federation might consider in agreement with Modo Doctrine

Spartan Federation will trade Doc: Initiative under the following embargo required from Data Angels:

- Do not trade this technology for indicated number of turns,
- Do not use this technology for indicated number of turns. As not using it I understand not designing any units with it, what would not include cases when we might receive some ships in the future, when for example some AI gets them.
- Do not attempt to find "ways around" like allowing others to probe us for this technology.

Would Spartan Federation be interested in such arrangement?

IT Mart

Any restriction between 10 - 20 turns would be probably ok. I do not think we might discover or trade Doc: Init within this time anyway.

If they ask for more than 25-30 turns, then we would probably go the other way - I remember that Gaians were researching Ecological Engineering, but I am not sure of it at the present moment. So we might switch to it.

[Mart]

This would be restricting us and final result might be not very beneficial to us. Good point would be no lost lab points now - just a little bunch of them, and one less tech to probe in the future, so other usefull ones would come faster.

How much useful is Doc Initiative when MCC is build? Faster Probe Cruisers. Naval Yards - maybe embargo would not include it. Amphibious pods. If we play standard alphax.txt - probe teams cannot have it due to the bug.

[Mart]

Lt. Maniac forwarded this message:

Lt-Col Maniac here. This isn't an officially sanctioned message, but as I assume you need to pass on your turn in the near future, I thought I'd give you an update on some discussions within the Junta.

First, I've just noticed something in Googlie's latest message I hadn't noticed before.
"The Angels change research right now to Optical Computers. We will send Opticals this year (2153 for us) in exchange for your sending us Adaptive Economics this year. This then guarantees that Int Int will appear as a choice for the Angels in your 2154 year"

If you'd change research right now you'd be indeed unable to select Optical Computers. This problem doesn't exist however if you switch research next year. The only purpose of giving you Optical Computers is to give all techs an extra +1 in the mod3 roulette, meaning IntInt will switch from 0 to 1. So next year, after having accepted OptComp which we would need to put pre-accepted in the diplobox, you should be able to switch research and directly select Intellectual Integrity.

As compensation for OptComp we would ask you to put Adaptive Economics pre-accepted in the diplobox this turn. OptComp is pretty useless, but AdapEcon as well, so I guess this is a pretty even deal. Note though there are voices within the Junta who would prefer to see some credits instead of AdapEcon in exchange for OptComp. May we therefore ask how many credits you could pay for us providing you a tech? Perhaps an extension of your turntime limit might be preferable so we can discuss this issue some more?

As a last request from some Junta members, could we ask not to execute a tech transfer of EthCalc to Gaia until this matter is resolved, and you have confirmed that you have switched to IntInt, and thus can fulfill your side of the deal?

Would we agree on transfer of energy? How much for Optical Comps?

[Mart]

I thought 50-80 EC. Is it just right or too much?

[Hercules]

For a 'usless tech' 50 is a bit high but buying it will slow our building of NNs which we also need to do to deliver Intel Integ sooner. And it will slow our own research also.

My preference is to trade Adaptive Econ.

[Mart]

Hercules,
I think of making social engineering
60%-40%-0% research zero so we do not make lab points we would have to switch
this way we get 29 EC/turn
Are there any drawbacks of having 0 labs/turn?