PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Maniac]

They got a great deal in getting Plan Nets from you

Ha! Now you hear it from someone else. We shouldn't have given them PlaNets just like that the previous time. "Game Theory" can go to hell for all I care!

[DeathByTheSword]

JDM last PM looks more like it. and i agree with Googlie`s analyse. we are in a bad position relative to there`s. we should still try to trade. but maybe a totally other deal. if this doesnt work. we fight.

[Corellion]

You know, that's a good idea... let's propose a deal for once and force THEM to reject it. If nothing else, it provides more proof of their continued unfriendliness, and a better case for war.

Edit: I believe Drogue at one point proposed a Ind Base for Ind Auto swap. It sounds perfect.

[Drogue]

Maniac: Don't they have Ind Base? They are currently researching Ind Auto IIRC. Personally, I'd rather not give them synthmetal. But hey, we want Ind Auto, so might be worth it. Ask Miriam for Roze's commfreq though, they might have met. If not.

Since this deal seems to be slipping, can I try one last gasp attempt? JDM seems to be so sure of how much use it is to us, that I will try to make it seem like it isn't, ie. maybe we've met someone else who can trade part of it. He says that we're illogical in not going for it, but he doesn't know how much it's worth to us. I'll write it tonight, when I get home.

Manaic: we didn't lose out with Plan Nets, they would have got it anyway. We each got Soc Psy, and we got 20ec of them too. We both would have had Plan Nets anyway, so that didn't make much difference. I think we gained a lot last time, considering we they would have Plan Nets whatever we did.

[DeathByTheSword]

they can check who we met on the blablabla-F5-orsomethinglikethat-screen...so i dont know if that would work

[Maniac]

Maniac: Don't they have Ind Base?

No. PEACE bought IndEco from the Angels. That's how they could research IndAut now.

Manaic: we didn't lose out with Plan Nets, they would have got it anyway.

I know I know. I was just expressing my "frustration".
/me tries to hide he's currently part of the Unimatrix experiment.

Btw guys, I just realized something. The AI is usually unwilling to sell any tech which gives access to a secret project. So why would the Angels now want to sell it to PEACE? I think this whole deal was impossible right from the start... Having that information, may I send this PM to the Pirates? Or should I wait until we actually have the Angel commlink?

Hello Cuspidore BrownBeard and Captain Hercules,

I just realized something which I should have realized at the start of the negotiations: AI factions don't sell techs which give access to secret projects. So unless you can somehow give me assurance you can get IndBase, I have to assume the Angels won't trade. This of course makes our whole bickering pointless. Without IndBase, there's no way the CyCon could, with your help of course, research IndAut in three or four years. This means we also have no more reason to slow down our research. We'll have to research Industrial Base, and you'll have to research IndAut on your own tempo. May I therefore suggest we close this chapter, as external circumstances make the deal impossible?

There's something else the Consciousness should have realized but didn't because we were so focused on the negotiations with you. Fortunately DeathByTheSword pointed it to us yesterday night. We have the commlink frequency of Miriam as Drogue and I already mentioned to you twice. We also have reason to believe she has met the Angels. This means that in our next turn we could probably buy the Angels frequency for just a few ec. Then a few turns later, when our credit reserves have grown to 100 ec again, we could buy IndEco from the Angels ourselves. Who knows with a bit of luck (4 chances on 9 according to you) we might reach IndAut at the same time of you. With this new information you also loose your monopoly of our sole tech supplier you previously had, and you can no longer demand more than you give because of the relative advantage you had.

Though we could buy IndEco from the Angels, I personally prefer to trade with our pact brothers instead of with one of Googlie's souped-up AIs. But it would have to be on a one-tech-for-one-tech basis. Therefore I propose you give us IndEco. In exchange we would give you the valuable tech of

[Fellow Cyborgs, please choose the text I should insert]
a) Biogenetics. Yes, valuable. You may claim you do not need the tech, but I don't buy that. Biogenetics is a prerequisite for Gene Splicing, which is one of the key techs for the Pirates with all their kelp farms.
b) Industrial Base. Yes, valuable. You may claim you do not need the tech because you're aiming for 3-res armour, but I don't buy that. Industrial Base is a prerequisite for no less than three other techs besides IndEco. It also is necessary for Adaptive Doctrine, which is one of the key techs for the Pirates because of the marine detachment special ability.

If you would be interested in such a deal, please contact me. You know my commlink.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Drogue]

I would be very against putting that personally.

Firstly: They will be very aggreved that we assume they are lying without evidence. Find out if Roze would sell it first, we haven't played this AI before, it could act differently.

Secondly: Don't tell them about getting Roze. I think I have a way of putting it much more subtley, accentuating the fact that we might not have so much to gain, thus it isn't worth 75ec. IMHO you give them too much informatio there. The way I would put it might be a bit misleading to them, but I don't think that would work.

Lastly: They won't accept that trade. JDN got very annoyed when I pointed out how good those techs were, and they don't want them anyway. Remember they go on about how they are two useless techs they would need to get.

I think we should convince them we haven't got that much to gain, and we have other ways of getting Ind Auto (they reckon it would take us 20-50 years, which it won't. If they see that it isn't worth 100ec to us, I think they may accept the 25ec. I won't offer anymore. What do you think?

[Maniac]

Firstly: They will be very aggreved that we assume they are lying without evidence.

You mean about IndBase? It wasn't my intention to suggest they are lying. I was assuming they had forgotten as well AIs don't trade SP techs.

Find out if Roze would sell it first, we haven't played this AI before, it could act differently.

That would involve us having to wait until we have 100 ec to buy IndEco from the Angels. Besides, they have sold to PEACE. Why wouldn't they to us?

Secondly: Don't tell them about getting Roze. I think I have a way of putting it much more subtley, accentuating the fact that we might not have so much to gain, thus it isn't worth 75ec.

Our previous attempts to make them clear it isn't worth 75 ec to us didn't get through to under their skulls. I don't think subtle messages work on those Pirates. This would be better --->

Lastly: They won't accept that trade.

So what? Then we just sell from Roze. It's their choice. According to "game theory" , I presume it would be in their advantage to accept. Actually even if we would eg only offer 50 ec for IndEco. It's better than nothing.

If they see that it isn't worth 100ec to us, I think they may accept the 25ec. I won't offer anymore. What do you think?

You're still assuming here the Pirates can get IndBase from the Angels. I seriously doubt that.
If not send them the whole PM right now, I would at least send something like this:

Hello Cuspidore BrownBeard and Captain Hercules,

I just realized something which I should have realized at the start of the negotiations: AI factions don't sell techs which give access to secret projects. So I have to ask: are you sure the Angels are willing to trade IndBase, or did you forget this annoying AI behaviour as well? If they won't trade, this of course makes all of our past bickering pointless. Without IndBase, there's no way the CyCon could, with your help of course, research IndAut in three or four years. This means we also have no more reason to slow down our research. We'll be forced to research Industrial Base, and you'll have to research IndAut on your own tempo.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
You mean about IndBase? It wasn't my intention to suggest they are lying. I was assuming they had forgotten as well AIs don't trade SP techs.

Point taken. Sorry, being an idiot

Originally posted by Maniac
Our previous attempts to make them clear it isn't worth 75 ec to us didn't get through to under their skulls. I don't think subtle messages work on those Pirates. This would be better --->

No. We have previously concentrated on the fact that they gain more than us, and we wanted a fair deal. JDM wants us to concentrate on how much we gain. He has a point. I want to point out to him that we have less to game than he thinks (and than we actually do). Such as hint that we know someone who can trade it. State that it is worth less to us than they seem to think, but only hint at the reasons. Being so blatant about Roze gives him an opportunity to argue against it. If we don't state it, but hint at even more reasons why we would get it earlier without them, then they may agree that we have less to gain, and so sell for cheaper.

Originally posted by Maniac
So what? Then we just sell from Roze. It's their choice. According to "game theory" , I presume it would be in their advantage to accept. Actually even if we would eg only offer 50 ec for IndEco. It's better than nothing.

But they don't want us to have it. If we ask them that, we have wrecked the deal. There isn't a point asking to trade soemthing we want (and they know it) for something that don't want. They don't want Ind Base, or Biogenetics. They will simply reject it, and JDM will think we're patronising them about the techs.

Originally posted by Maniac
If not send them the whole PM right now, I would at least send something like this

Looks good Although the last part isn't needed IMHO, and it seems a little preaching, like your trying to say the deals off and we want to speed up research. I would put something like:

Hello Cuspidore BrownBeard and Captain Hercules,

I just realized something which I should have realized at the start of the negotiations: AI factions don't sell techs which give access to secret projects Are you sure the Angels are willing to trade IndBase, or did you forget this annoying AI behaviour as well? If they won't trade, this deal is sadly not possible

Make it seem like a genuine concern, like we want the deal, and not like we're trying to find a way out. Just a few observations. I would leave the rest. I will write something tonight for you to look at, and see what you think, if that's ok?

[Maniac]

No. We have previously concentrated on...

Ok. I'll await your diplomatic proposal of tonight.

Originally posted by Drogue
But they don't want us to have it.

Do you mean : "But they don't want to have Biogen or IndBase."? Would they agree then if we offer them 50/75 ec in exchange for IndEco, and say we will trade with Roze if they don't agree with that deal? (Jee, that sounds too much like a threat, while my only intention would be to state a mere diplomatic reality. )

Looks good Although the last part isn't needed IMHO, and it seems a little preaching, like your trying to say the deals off and we want to speed up research. I would put something like:... ...I will write something tonight for you to look at, and see what you think, if that's ok?

Ok. Do you intend to include the IndBase inquiry in your PM, or should it be sent seperately?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
Do you mean : "But they don't want to have Biogen or IndBase."?

Yes.

Originally posted by Maniac
Would they agree then if we offer them 50/75 ec in exchange for IndEco

Almost certainly no. They paid 100ec for it, I am pretty sure they won't sell it for anything less, even though they gain. It seems our Pact Brothers are more concerned with us not having it than with helping themselves financially Being that neither of our faction is at all likely to win alone, I would have thought a mutual sharing, even without ec, would raise a chance of a join victory massively. But sadly they feel rocky about our Pact, and unless they begin to trust us, and us them, I can't see this being a Pact from mutual victory. If we try, they will through a fit about us wanting it for less, and them having to pay more, etc... They cannot see that they gain from us having it and for the ec we are willing to pay. I think we have to contact Roze.

I suggest we ally with the Hive when we find them, towards victory. We have good relations with them, we provide the tech, they provide the units (we give them a tech i exchange for them transfering units to our control) and thus together we can win. Neither us nor the Hive are likely to win alone, and together we can fight Buster/Archaic who are likely to IMHO. Very soon I think we'll gain more from war than Pact with PEACE. Unless we run FM (commerce ).

Originally posted by Maniac
and say we will trade with Roze if they don't agree with that deal? (Jee, that sounds too much like a threat, while my only intention would be to state a mere diplomatic reality. )

I know, it is sad how meanings can seem misrepresentative However that is the truth. How about when you get the turn, start playing immediately, and contact Miriam, to get Roze's commlink. If you can get it, then tell PEACE Roze contacted us and offered it, but if they will undercut her, we will trade with them. If we can't get the link, then bluff it, and claim she has anyway But wait until we know, it will effect our negotiations.

Originally posted by Maniac
Ok. Do you intend to include the IndBase inquiry in your PM, or should it be sent seperately?

Probably better to send it now if you wish, but either is fine. You could send it now if you wish, or I'll send it later

[Maniac]

PM and mail sent.

[Maniac]

Woops! I just found some e-mails in my inbox in answer to my mail about IndBase. Any suggestions what I should answer, or should I ignore them until we have our turn and can tell for sure we have Roze's frequency (and thus 95% sure IndEco in say three turns, and eg 66% chance of researching IndAut ourselves in 13 turns.)? In any case, they seem to be softening up. Perhaps our relative silence of the last two days is making it clear to them we aren't gonna tolerate their attitude. At times bluffing and refusing to negotiate can be better than begging, even if we are in a relatively worse position.

Hercules' mail 1:

Hi Mani-Alpha-3, and new Emperor Drogue

Thanks for your recent communication re our aquisition of Ind Econ. You are quite right to raise these matters.

First we were most fired up by the fact we had acquired Ind Econ ( from
Roze) and then we saw the unique opportunity of what I call the 'leap frog' move, a strategy ( not necessarily with that name, that is well known in these circles, whereby thru co-operation, factions can jump a couple of tech levels), from which we could both benefit.

The message from DJ was that she was asking for 100 ecs per tech. When offered Ind Econ, for 100ecs, after much soul searching , we paid it, because we could see the advantage to both our factions, and the chance of Ind Auto, because of your research line, but it was a blind risk.

We thought. you would welcome and be appreciative of the chance to get to Ind Auto some 30 years( approx) ahead of your schedule and especially (as I pointed out to you ) the Drones and Hive already have it ( Ind Auto). That factor doesn't seem to have sunk in.

Regarding acquiring Ind base: we the Pirates have a number of options to obtain it: ( one via negotiation) But you ( Cycon) think that this is not really an option because of the AI set up to refuse access to selling a SP tech which is still operative.. We're not sure about that in a MP situation (researching)

Second option, probe it. Our party boat (spy boat is now out there. It is currently headed to an AI base, but we would not be surprised if a new Data J base became available and within reach. ( no guarantee here of course)

There is the strong possibility we will come into contact with a faction that have Ind Base.

In summary, We have a number of opportunities of obtaining Ind Base. We want to look on the positive side. If we don't secure Ind Base, well no real harm done, apart from set back. If we can secure Ind Base within the next turn, the world (our joint
world) is our oyster.

But please indicate willingness to continue negotiation.

Hercules' mail 2:

Hi Prime, second, third, fourth and the next algorithmic important functions.

We have kept the door of opportunity open and if I may so, logically so have you.

Prime Function Mani -Alpha 3 - has alerted us to the possibility that we ( the Pirates) may not be able to obtain Ind Base next turn. We are not so sure.We believe there is more than a 50 : 50 chance of obtaining it.

If we obtain it ( Ind base) we are keen to initiate the 'leap frog' procedure.

As Cuspidore BB explained and has published his theory in the learned journal ' Scientific Planetarian', ( excerpts of which have been published elsewhere), there is a pattern as to how techs are offered. It is his , my and our faction view that a tech such Ind Auto ( provided the pre-requisite techs are in place), becomes available as a choice option with known frequency rate of participation.

We believe the tech choice ( Ind Auto) will be available to the Cycon, next year or the year after and more importantly because of the years
already spent in research by team members (transfered to the new
research objective), the year of discovery would be within 2/3 years; as opposed to perhaps 20+ years.

Let's focus on that prize.

But for us to even have a chance you must set back your discovery rate by 1 or 2 years, in order to be offered Ind Auto at some stage.

Perhaps a way forward is to put in one column the things we are agreed on and in another column the things that are in dispute. And agree to resolve the disaputed items afterwards in the luxury of Ind Auto. [Note from Maniac: ]

I feel we can secure Ind Base next turn, if so I want us to progress to Ind Auto. If we can't then the deal is off.

johndmuller's mail:

Mani,

That's an interesting point, I wasn't thinking that would happen so early in the game; you're talking about where they say something like "I can't trade the xxx (Tech) to you because I don't want to the xxx (SP) to fall into your hands", right? I think of it as happening later in the game when you're in first place and the AI is seething at everyone and they are either building the thing or it is one of their own kind of SPs, like this one would be for Morgan. I wouldn't have thought that it happens ALL the time, as you are suggesting; has there been a thread on that or something?

Anyway, Cap'n Herc sounded pretty confident that we could get it - maybe it was mentioned in one of those dialog boxes where they offer you a trade, (like in this case maybe she asked for our Doc:Flex, offering IndEcon) and there are a couple of alternatives listed in the responses - like were you say "OK, but give me IndBase instead of IndEcon". *next sentence censored on johndmuller's request*

How much can you ****** you research, I know you are pretty close, and I'm pretty sure that you could do 1 extra year without much trouble, but I don't really know exactly what the effects of changing your allocation (or if necessary you energy production) might be since you can't access a pactmate's SE screen. Short of inducing Drone riots (and maybe not even then) there is still the bases' own production even if you put all your workers in the fungus, so there may be a minimum, not to mention the pain I am sure you would be feeling at the massive inefficiency (the prescription for that is to think about all the years we could be shaving off the IndAuto track).

Anyway, Herc didn't seem troubled by anything like that and he is more prone to worrying than you would think that anyone with a gut so full of xenogrog could be.

BrownBeard

[Corellion]

Well, they seem to be being more agreeable now.

[Chaunk]

I'm inclined to think we should slow down our research and try and deal. We do need IndAuto, and so this is definatly to our advantage to try and do so.

They are still our pact brothers after all!