PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Maniac]

I've just opened the turn and contacted the Believers. They asked us Doc:Mob because of the UN Charter and all that. I refused. Then I asked them for the Angel frequency. They offered it for 25 ec. I gladly accepted and made a small dance besides my computer. Now we only have 95 ec. Probably 5 too short to buy IndEco from the Angels, so I didn't contact them yet.
I'll write a mail to the Pirates right away informing them of this new situation.

Good to know for negotiations:

• The Pirates have accumulated 4 labs in their research to IndAut. This probably means they have lost 4 labs by having to switch.
• At economy-psych-labs 50-0-50 or 40-0-60 we produce 8 ec and 15.6 labs per year. At the 70-0-30 necessary to delay our research we produce 13 ec and 6 labs. This means a loss of 4.6 energy. 4.6 - 4 = 0.6. Ergo the Pirates should pay us 0.6 credits.

[Maniac]

Hello Cuspidore and Captain,

First, thanks for your mails concerning Industrial Base. As Cuspidore BrownBeard mentioned, I was indeed thinking of my SP experience while being the most powerful faction when I thought the AI wouldn't want to trade. It may be different now. But let's get down to business:

Our turn has just arrived. This means we can continue our negotiations. I am now authorized to disclose to you a crucial piece of information which we didn't inform you of yet because we weren't a 100% sure it could be realized. But now it is: We have established contact with the Data Angels.

As of now, we are capable of buying Industrial Economics from the Data Angels ourselves. When we have done so, we could switch our research immediately to Industrial Automation and research IndAut in five or six years. However that would mean we would loose half of our labs currently accumulated towards Industrial Base. Therefore it might be recommended to complete our research of IndBase first and then research IndAut. Using that tactic we would still research IndAut around the same time of you. You may now realize why there is no way we would ever give you three techs and 100 ec to get IndAut ten turns earlier (so certainly not the 50 turns you wanted us to believe).

Despite this new situation we would still prefer to trade with you, our pact brothers, instead of with one of Googlie's souped-up AIs. However we want to be treated and respected as EQUAL PARTNERS in this endeavour. Concrete this means a trade on the basis of "one-tech-for-one-tech".

Therefore I repeat my previous offer:

We offer:
Biogen
IndAut

You offer:
IndBase
IndEcon

We are willing to discuss the details of the deal - for example if you would want credits or some future tech we research instead of the "worthless" Biogen, or if you would want some credits in exchange for the restrictions we would like on Biogenetics trading if we give it to you - but since we now are in the same position to get IndAut in less than fifteen years the base model remains: one tech for one tech.

***

Ah yes, one little and funny thing I quickly checked after I got the turn. You have accumulated 4 labs in your research to IndAut. This probably means you have lost 4 labs by having to switch last turn. At economy-psych-labs 50-0-50 or 40-0-60 we produce 8 ec and 15.6 labs per year. At the 70-0-30 necessary to delay our research one year we produce 13 ec and 6 labs. This means a loss of 4.6 energy. 4.6 minus 4 is 0.6. Ergo you owe us zero point six credits. ;-)))))))

Friendly greetings, :-)

Mani Alpha-3

[Corellion]

Excellent... it's great levelling the playing field for once, and wiping the smiles off those illogical pirates' faces.

[Corellion]

Er, one problem I just realised.

If we were to purchase Ind Eco from the Angels, it would cost us credits. PEACE is most likely going to bring up the argument that, because they've paid that price, and we won't have to, we should pay them some credits.

Unfortunately, I view this as a valid and logical argument. Seeing as it is unlikely they will accept the deal without any credits, then we should probably offer a couple as a sweetener if they ask. Although the 100 they've proposed seems a bit much, we should agree upon an acceptable amount. Perhaps the External Affairs Function can begin a poll to determine how many credits we are willing to part with.

[Maniac]

If they bring up that argument, I will them that we would gladly pay them half the price it cost(-ed in past time?) them to purchase IndEcon. In other words 50 ec. But I will always tell them that, since by paying them 50 credits we now own half the rights of IndEcon, we would no longer give them a tech in exchange for IndEcon.

Nevertheless I would be fully willing to give them an extra 30 credits. With anything more I'd start to worry about our finances.

[Corellion]

Sounds reasonable... I would have stopped at about 25, but 30 isn't too much of a sacrifice.

BTW, the past of cost is cost... costed isn't a word. Thus, you were correct in the first place.

[Maniac]

johndmuller's response:

Cap'n Herc and I may not get to talk about this for a little bit due to the time zone thing, so I thought I'd give you my initial take on your proposition in the meantime.

For a message that is titled 'Let's continue our negotiations', it seems to offer a noticable lack of negotiations - one can't help noticing that you have not changed your offer at all.

If you want to pay 100 credits to Roze instead of to your pactmate, that speaks volumes.

You also seem to be taking for granted that you will have the opportunity to research what you want, a proposition which is not guaranteed; apparently you slept through my seminar.

We are prepared to negotiate; please let us know when you are similarly inclined.

the Cuspidore.

My response:

Hello Cuspidore (cc to Herc),

First, do you really constantly need to make unfairly acid comments like "you show a lack of willingness to negotiate" or "it speaks volumes you want to pay 100 ec to the Angels"? They upset many cyborgs and decrease their willingness to trade, even if trading would be in our advantage.

I mentioned in my mail that we were willing to discuss the details of the deal. However the base model should remain one tech for one tech. This seems only logical seeing the current situation. As mentioned before, we are willing to offer a few credits for possible Biogen restrictions or to compensate for the claimed uselessness of IndBase - despite it being prequisite for three other techs you don't have - but certainly not a 100.

Yes we are willing to pay 100 credits to Roze. But that does not speak volumes. As said in my previous mail, we would prefer to trade with you, but if we have the choice to get IndEco in exchange for eg 100 ec, or in exchange for two techs and 100 ec, the choice is quickly made.

We are prepared to negotiate; please let us know when you are similarly inclined.

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Drogue]

Sounds good. Sorry for my absense as of late, exam things

I think, if you agree, I'll send a mail to JDM saying that we haven't changed our position, but because the circumstance changed in our favour we feel it is now a more reasonable offer. Also point out that we would not want to give Roze 100ec, and ask them to come up with a better offer. It would be illogical of us to pay more when we don't have to. We consider a tech to be worth about 100ec, and thus we will either give them 100ec for the tech or one of our own techs. They have much to gain too.

Edit: You made the point well, scrap that. If they don't accept, I could offer any of these though:

We offer:
Biogen
IndAut
25ec for the inconvenience of not being able to trade Biogenetics

You offer:
IndBase
IndEcon

or

We offer:
100ec
IndAut

You offer:
IndBase
IndEco

BTW: Am I correct that we are researching Ind Base now? How long has it to go? Do they have Ind Base? We could put another option, that of:

We offer:
100ec (try 75 first)

You offer:
Ind Eco

IMHO we should point out the logic of the first one, the double trade, and if not then we offer 75ec for Ind Eco, straight out. What do you think?

[Googlie]

[Corellion]

Perhaps you should point out to our friendly neighbourhood pirates that, in fact, throughout these negotiations, it is THEY who have not changed their offer once. In fact, they have not even reiterated their initial offer. It is us who have gone from tech-for-tech (which, we can't stress enough, was one of the terms of our pact) to offering some energy credits, to offering MORE energy credits. Inform them that the reason we would be willing to give 100 EC to the Angels, rather than to them, is not because we dislike them, but because the Angels are offering us A BETTER DEAL. They, as self-proclaimed traders and merchants, should be well aware of this principle.

I wish Flubber would get back soon.

[Maniac]

If they haven't sent me any mail by midnight, I'll send them an "ultimatum" (I won't call it that of course) with more or less the two proposals you have proposed, Drogue. If we haven't agreed on a deal in 24 hours (around the time our 48 hours is over), I'll send the turn to them, with our research delayed but not with any offer in the diplobox. Then it's entirely up to them to decide whether the deal goes on or not.

Btw, another slightly related matter. In response to my inquiry regarding IndBase, Hercules told them they could get IndBase by negotiating with or probing the Angels. He then continued:

There is the strong possibility we will come into contact with a faction that have Ind Base.

This sentence, together with the fact that PUT has acquired Doc:Mob this turn, leads me to the hypothesis that Peace might be trading with PUT in exchange for IndBase.

I have no idea what we could do with this possible information though.

Corellion:

Saying that might be not so "diplomatic", but I will gladly do so.

[Drogue]

I think we can explain what Corellion said politely, it is the whole point. Simply say to them, we would rather trade with you, but as you said, you are traders, and must understand that it would be illogical for us refuse a better offer. Simply say if they will match it, we will trade with them instead. Then as a seperate deal ask what they want for Ind Base. Stress the wanting to trade with them.

[Maniac]

Ah, since you're just online, can you give your opinion on this mail I intend to send?

Hello Cuspidore and Captain,

Except for BrownBeard's short reply, I see you still haven't responded what you think about my proposal. As the 48-hour time limit I have to play the turn in already expires in 23 hours, I have taken the liberty to write you yet another mail with a more concrete proposal.

Before that I'd like to come back a minute on your comments in the previous mail. You said there was a lack of negotiations in my mail, and that we haven't changed our initial offer at all. However I would like to point out that throughout these negotiations it is YOU who has not changed your offer once. In fact, you have not even reiterated your initial offer. It is us who have gone from tech-for-tech (which, we can't stress enough, was one of the terms of our pact) to offering some energy credits, to offering MORE energy credits. And the reason we would be willing to give 100 EC to the Angels, rather than to you, is not because we dislike you, but because the Angels are offering us A BETTER DEAL. You, as traders and merchants, should be well aware of this principle.

In the absence of any comments from you we in the Consciousness have had plenty of time to discuss what is the maximum we are willing to offer in exchange for Industrial Base and Industrial Economics. As a result we have come to two possible deals, depending on what you like more: techs or credits.

Model 1: tech-heavy deal

You offer: IndBase
In return we offer: IndAut ten turns earlier than we both would normally get
You offer: IndEco
In return we offer: Biogen, plus 25 credits if you do not build the HGP the next 25 years and if you don't trade Biogen to another faction unless we agree (or until the HGP is complete)

You could of course switch the arguments I gave for what we offer, eg IndAut <-> IndEco and IndBase <-> Biogen + 25 credits. That doesn't matter.

Model 2: credit-heavy deal

You offer: IndBase
In return we offer: IndAut ten turns earlier than we both would normally get
You offer: IndEco
In return we offer: 60 credits; that's more than half of what you paid to the Angels to get IndEco. So by giving you 60 credits we would buy half the "owning rights" for IndEco. In addition, because we appreciate you are willing to trade with us, in this model we offer an extra 20 credits as a gift.

Summarized, in exchange for IndBase and IndEco we offer IndAut, Biogen and 25 credits, or IndAut and 80 credits.

Again, the details of this deal are certainly open for discussion. For example if you wanted another tech than Biogen.

If we haven't reached a deal yet by the time I need to play the turn, I'll delay our research but of course I won't offer you anything yet in the in-game diplomacy box. The turn will then be in your hands, and with that also the decision whether to go through with the deal or not.

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Corellion]

Sounds good, but that paragraph I put in was mostly meant for internal discussion. If you're going to send it to them, you might want to make it a bit more "diplomatic", as both you and Drogue have put.

Hopefully they'll accept this.

[Maniac]

Oh ****. Because Drogue didn't answer, I sent the mail. I hope this doesn't swrew a possible deal. However, I suppose Drogue, or anyone else online, could take over negotiations from me, claim that my mail was not the official position of the Consciousness, apologize for my behaviour, and hope for the best.

Edit: I wrote the following mail:

Hello Cuspidore and Captain,

I would like to apologize for the paragraph below I wrote in my previous mail. It was rather undiplomatic of me, certainly after asking you myself to make some less unfairly acid comments. ;-) During these negotiations we sometimes write words we later regret. This is such a moment.

"Before that I'd like to come back a minute on your comments in the previous mail. You said there was a lack of negotiations in my mail, and that we haven't changed our initial offer at all. However I would like to point out that throughout these negotiations it is YOU who has not changed your offer once. In fact, you have not even reiterated your initial offer. It is us who have gone from tech-for-tech (which, we can't stress enough, was one of the terms of our pact) to offering some energy credits, to offering MORE energy credits. And the reason we would be willing to give 100 EC to the Angels, rather than to you, is not because we dislike you, but because the Angels are offering us A BETTER DEAL. You, as traders and merchants, should be well aware of this principle."

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3