PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Maniac]

My response:

Hello again Cuspidore and Captains,

(like if you were a Hive agent wanting to ruin opportunities for the CyCon)

That would be something: the CyCon Prime Function a Hive agent!

Anyway , I'm here with the promised questions and a few issues I'm quite confused about:

For instance you say you now have IndEco. But you also have PlaNets, the other prerequisite for IndAut. So didn't you have the option to research IndAut after you finished ProgPsych (probably, at your current research rate, postponing your discovery of IndAut by another two decades in the worst case )? And what tech did you choose then after you researched ProgPsych?

Further I'm wondering where you got IndEco. Are you trading with another AI or human faction? If so, please know that the CyCon are always interested in information about other factions, their commlinks etcetera. And why aren't you sure you can get IndBase? Are their certain things or techs another faction is demanding of you in exchange for IndBase, and which you are not sure you can provide?

I'm however most confused about something in Hercules' mail:

To insure that we given the best chance of acquiring Ind Base, it may be important that you send over Applied Physics or Biogenetics next turn

How is getting IndBase related with ApplPhys and Biogen? If I understand you correctly, your proposal is as following:
1) This turn MY 2127 you give us IndEcon pre-accepted.
2) Our turn MY 2128 we accept IndEcon and slow down our research, thereby losing a few credits and labs due to inefficiency.
3) Your turn MY 2128 you somehow receive IndBase and give it to us pre-accepted.
4) Our turn MY 2129 we accept IndBase and can hopefully directly choose IndAut. If not, have to we choose a tech we know you have, so you can again give it to us, hopefully allowing us to choose IndAut next time.
5) Once we have IndAut, we give it to you, together with any other tech or payment (which we could give earlier of course) you require for giving us Indbase, IndEcon and a possible third tech (eg ProgPsych) if we couldn't research IndAut right away.

Did I get that right?

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Corellion]

Damnit, they're doing it again. They're trying to rush things for us.

I don't mean to sound paranoid, but I am becoming worried again that they are trying to force us into deals we don't fully understand by imposing a time limit. And their sketchiness on the details is also very worrisome.

I would be in favour of a deal such as this because IndAuto is such an important tech, however their style is once again really straining relations. But first we need to work out the specifics of the plan a little more, such as what we shall give them in exchange. I don't want to go into this, accepting all their techs without any pre-arranged price, and then have them hold this deal over our heads for a long time, eventually deciding on a price.

In the meantime, I would suggest that both PEACE and ourselves delay our turns as long as possible (I feel rather guilty about this) so that we can have the most negotiating time possible. Drogue and Maniac... don't leave any question unasked, don't leave any loose thread uninvestigated. Last time this happened, it almost led to war, and I really am beginning to feel like they're trying to fleece us.

Just my input as Internal Affairs function (in other words, for all my authority, Random Function #397).

[Maniac]

I agree with your sentiment Corellion.

I find it odd they haven't responded yet. After all they insisted on swift responses. It's especially odd because Hercules and I were both on-line for three hours after I sent my last PM. After those three hours I left Poly because my computer work was done. I wonder what that means. Perhaps Hercules doesn't have sufficient authority.

Much simplier explanation: they haven't read my PM yet. Even Hercules not. confused:

[Maniac]

Latest PM from johndmuller:

Dear [Strike]Hive Agent[/strike] Prime Function Mani Alpha-3,

Let me address some of your questions to [strike]the limits of what they will let me say before I would have to walk the plank[/strike] the best of my ability.

It is true that we could also, in theory, research Industrial Auto ourselves, but in addition to the (small, at this point) charge for changing research targets and the possibility of not being offered it as one of the techs despite having the prereq's, it would, as you noted, probably take us 15 years or so to do the research, whereas there appears to be an opportunity to get it in only 3 or 4 years this way. We didn't select it when we finished our research because that happens in the pre-turn phase, before we had acquired the Industrial Econ tech, and so we did not yet have the prereq's for IndAuto.

We purchased the IndEcon from the DataJack and they are also a potential source of the IndBase tech. Since you were asking about the DJ, I can tell you that she is feeling Erraticallly Noncommital at the moment (I fear that her opinion of your Borgships would probably 'not compute'). We have determined that Roze also has IndBase (a ship full of [strike]our spies[/strike] innocent carousers was lost acquiring that information) and we may be able to acquire it from her also.

The reason that Cap'n Hercules mentioned Biogenetics was that Roze may offer us Biogenetics instead of IndBase and that could be precluded if we already had that tech. (When Cap'n Hercules included Applied Physics, it was the xenorum reading that tech into the Carousers' Intelligence report - the Datatechs do not have that tech). As you probably know, Biogenetics is not as useful a tech for us as it is for you in that our sea bases come with Pressure Domes and only our land bases might use Recyc's, so we would not cook up some elaborate ruse merely to get Biogenetics. It may be that Roze considers IndBase her next disposable tech instead of Biogen, but we do not know that to be true, so unless you know better than our 'scientists' (which is a pretty good bet), it would be prudent (as foreign a concept as that is to us) to avoid the situation where we would have to go an extra round (and perhaps another turn) with her to get to the IndBase, not to mention the extra cost.

As to why we are unsure we can get the tech, one simply cannot trust [strike]landlubbers[/strike] that Roz will deal with us at any given moment, let alone a moment of our choice.

Your analysis of the desired sequence of events is fundamentally correct. Conceivably we could take longer than hoped to get the IndBase (FYI stealing it in a reasonable enough time frame does not appear feasible due to the distance to the nearest DJ base that we know about). We are unsure as to for how long you can defer you research, but we assume you can slip it at least 1 year; if it were possible to work it so that you could optionally slip it for an additional year if we were delayed getting IndBase, that would be good. We of course recognize that you would be experiencing the pain of inefficiency and we sympathize with you - ordinarily, we would recommend a visit to the Rope Room astern for a pipe of xenoweed, but that may not be to your liking either.

On the contingency of your not being offered IndAuto the first time you have the Prereq's, I am entirely confident that the second time it would definitely be offered, so once you have the IndBase and IndEcon. as long as you have at least 1 extra turn in hand, it will be a sure thing that you can get IndAuto (unless the xenorum does the tech selection). As yuo might expect, we would prefer that you selected Progen Psych as the alternative tech "bridge", should you not be offered the Ind Auto.

We are hopeful that you will join us in this highly beneficial project, a real watershed event.

Please share your thinking on equitable quid pro quo possibities.

The Cuspidore BrownBeard.

[Drogue]

I am for the proposal, and less aprehensive than Function Corelli Omega-9, since I know the problem with turn limits, and wanting not to leave it 'til the last minute, in case someone isn't on and it doesn't get played for some reason. However I will make sure we are not fleeced. I don't think they're trying, after all, we gain a lot from this, if they happen to gain more, I'm not too upset about it. I think the last almost-war was a misunderstanding. Let us be couteous and agreeable until we see a solid reason to do otherwise. As with open and honest, let's screw that, last time we got consessions, if you feel the need this time, I might be able to try

[Maniac]

Wow. Sorry! I just realized I have forgotten to post my latest PM here from half a day back. Comments for further action or is it fine?

Maniac wrote on 10-08-2003 13:34:
Hello Cuspidore and Captains (with copies to the 2ndF and EAF),

I thank you for your clear answers to my questions. Everything is now understandable for my algorithms.

I understand the logic in wanting Biogenetics. Your latest P(b)ottle-Message hasn't been discussed yet, but there already was a general consensus we would be willing to give Biogenetics if we could both get IndAut that way.

so we would not cook up some elaborate ruse merely to get Biogenetics.

We weren't worried about that. We are worried though about a further proliferation of that technology. Therefore I have two requests for when I offer you Biogenetics pre-accepted next turn:
1> You won't research the Humane Genome Project. The CyCon have shown an interest in that ourselves.
2> You won't give Biogenetics to any other faction without our consent (or at least not before the HGP is finished).

That's about it actually concerning my remarks. Am I correct to assume this will be the whole deal between us if everything goes ok?:

Your offers and burdens:
IndBase
IndEco
A possible third tech if necessary (ProgPsych?)
Following Biogen restrictions

CyCon offers and burdens:
Biogen
IndAut
A possible third tech if necessary (ApplPhys?)
Suffering inefficiency from delaying research

I still have to present this list for final consent to the Collective, but very probably (my algorithms tell me probably no less than 95%) it will be accepted.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Chaunk]

That sounds good. My thoughts are that we should go to any and all lengths to get IndAuto, and it's worth bearing in mind that they're risking the deal on us sending it to them...

Sounds like a good deal all round as far as I can see.

C

[Maniac]

Msg 3 from BB to Mani
I think that we are generally on the same page regarding our goals and the procedure necessary to advance ourselves to Industrial Auto at all ahead full.

Your request w/r to the HGP is reasonable, but we might prefer a fixed time frame after which we could build it (especially if some 3rd party were building it and you were not); after all it would be of use to us too, helping us to GA pop boom.

Your proposed exchanges appear balanced at first glance, but our Cap'n's Council does not consider your proposed contributions to be commensurate with the benefits you will be receiving, most particularly compared with the costs and expected benefits we will receive. I hope we will not have to call in Ambassador/Cap'n Flubber once again to point out the disadvantages of driving too hard a bargain with us.

You are in a position to research IndAuto all by yourselves in a few turns plus 2 complete research cycles (at least 2, with bad luck on the tech offerings it could be up to 4 research cycles). The proposed deal gives it to you in just 3 turns or so.

On our own, we could switch to IndAuto right now and research it in 1 tech cycle (maybe 2 if we were unlucky) suffering an irritating, but affordable research penalty for the switch. Clearly, our current position is substantially ahead of yours in this area - your proposed arrangement does not reflect our relative starting positions.

We are obliged to obtain 2 techs we don't really need at this point (IndBase and BioGen) and possibly Applied Physics, causing a steep increase in our already formidable research costs. Additionally, we have already expended 100 P's of E and a 5 row ship (and crew and the negative turn advantage of losing it) and may have to expend an additional 100 P's of E to get the IndBase. For your part, the negatives seem to be 1 turn of inefficiency (maybe) due to switching your allocation and the possibility of having to acquire a tech you may not need (ProgenPsych).

As to putting the IndAuto into our column instead of into both, that is debatable; we will both be getting it as a result of this deal, and as I said above, we would have been getting it in half the time you would have gotten it if we do not make this deal.

I believe that an equitable arrangement, one that our Council would likely approve, would be in addition to the breakdown you listed, for you to share the cash expenses with us and to provide an additional tech to us (perhaps Applied Physics, perhaps some future tech). Further, if we find that we have exceeded our available time before readhing an agreement with you and have to switch our research to IndAuto to protect ourselves agqinst the possibility of not reaching agreement, then we will need additional compensation when the negotiations are concluded.

Please bear in mind that you can expect no better deal should we need to interrupt Ambassador/Cap'n Flubber on his vacation to explain his version of your options.

Assuming things are going to work out, we tip a mug of xenogrog your way.

the Cuspidore BrownBeard

Unless there are any objections, I'll PM johndmuller the deal's off.

[Drogue]

|I would offer them 20 Ec. They did with us when they had slightly mroe to gain. We do have slightly more to gain (far more difference than last time) and so 20 ec is not a lot. It would make us even overall. Let us not slit our nose to spite our face. We have a lot to gain here. We need IndAuto. I would say to them as the bottom line, either one level 1 tech, or 100 ec, as an absolute maximum. If you like I will discuss with Herc/JDM for this. We need Ind Auto, it is of massive benefit.

However I will point out that we agreed straight tech swaps, and that we would just like to swap techs, nothing more, equal number. Those were the terms of our Pact. Point that out to JDM. We could say we'll give them the tech if they give us the PUT/Angels Commlink? I think we need this deal more than them, and if we have to put out a little, we should. Though we could just state that the Pact we siggned was about one for one tech trades, equal, nothing else involved. See what JDM says then.

[Drogue]

In other words, I object to PMing him that the deals off. It can still be salvaged IMHO.

[Maniac]

20 or 30 (with inflation compared to the previous deal ) ec is indeed the most I would be willing to offer more, the same amount they gave us in the previous deal where they got better tech.

Drogue, I would indeed appreciate it if you took over negotiations. I was about to reply with a heated PM yesterday, but fortunately Poly went down right before I sent it. And if I had a planetbuster right now, I would LOVE to throw it on Tripoli... So as said before, I'm not at all the best person to conduct diplomatic negotiations. Internal Affairs (= just being a builder) is more my terrain. I'll write the many flaws I see in their arguments here though. Perhaps you can use them.

[Maniac]

From BB's PM:

Your request w/r to the HGP is reasonable, but we might prefer a fixed time frame after which we could build it (especially if some 3rd party were building it and you were not); after all it would be of use to us too, helping us to GA pop boom.

I guess 25 years should do the trick for sure.

I hope we will not have to call in Ambassador/Cap'n Flubber once again to point out the disadvantages of driving too hard a bargain with us.

You are in a position to research IndAuto all by yourselves in a few turns plus 2 complete research cycles (at least 2, with bad luck on the tech offerings it could be up to 4 research cycles). The proposed deal gives it to you in just 3 turns or so.

On our own, we could switch to IndAuto right now and research it in 1 tech cycle (maybe 2 if we were unlucky) suffering an irritating, but affordable research penalty for the switch. Clearly, our current position is substantially ahead of yours in this area - your proposed arrangement does not reflect our relative starting positions.

That's the only sane argument in his PM. We will probably take double as long as them to reach IndAut. On the other side however, I believe they have more need for IndAut than us: it leads to Doc:Ini. We however are still in a full expansion phase of CPs and formers. I expect we won't build that many crawlers yet. But the payment they expect for this relative advantage is way out of line. We give them two techs. They expect three and some cash back.
In that case it would actually be more profitable for us if we researched IndBase ourselves and then just traded for IndEco alone. We could then use the same argument as them (at least if we can choose IndEco as our next tech): "we're about to research IndEco anyway, so we're only willing to pay 20 ec extra (besides a tech) to get IndEco from you." Then we would still research IndAut about the same time as them.

We are obliged to obtain 2 techs we don't really need at this point (IndBase and BioGen) and possibly Applied Physics

They're not obliged to anything. They proposed the deal out of their own initiative for god's sake. Getting the (so they claim) useless AppPhys is countered by the even more useless ProgPsych (I'm actually thinking we should choose Doc:Flex instead of ProgPsych if we can't choose IndAut first - I don't feel any obligation to be honourable against those pirates).

causing a steep increase in our already formidable research costs.

How is that different for us? Besides, we are not responsible for their weak research capabilities.

Additionally, we have already expended 100 P's of E and a 5 row ship (and crew and the negative turn advantage of losing it) and may have to expend an additional 100 P's of E to get the IndBase.

for you to share the cash expenses with us and to provide an additional tech to us

This is the part where I began to wonder: "Are they complete morons? They just can't believe that crap themselves!" They will probably spend 200 ec and in return they get two techs, and then they expect another three techs plus some cash. Please, in such a deal they hardly have any expenses: they perhaps would have spent 100 ec in exchange for 5 techs.
No, either we give them two techs in exchange for their two techs, or either we follow their argumentation and share half the costs they made to get IndBase and probably IndEco. However in that case these two techs are just as much property of us than of them and we shouldn't give two extra techs.
As for their probe foil, that's the most ridiculous of all. I assume they have lost that foil in an attempt to infiltrate the Angels. If so, if we share the expenses of that probe, we should also get all the advantages, meaning Angel commlink, infiltration data and maps of the territory explored by the probe.

Further, if we find that we have exceeded our available time before readhing an agreement with you and have to switch our research to IndAuto to protect ourselves agqinst the possibility of not reaching agreement, then we will need additional compensation when the negotiations are concluded.

That's plain insulting. They're the ones currently stalling negotiations.

[DeathByTheSword]

i agree with what maniac says...but dont let them know that we are kinda pissed off...just talk to them with the utmost respect and trust...we need this deal...

[Drogue]

I'll take all that into account. Seems sensible reasoning Maniac. I will hope that JDM see's sense. I will of course be courteous, but firm. I will offer them 20ec as a sweetener for the fact they'd get it quicker, but explain the costs to them as them getting techs. I will also strongly mention that our pact was agreed on fair trade, one tech for one tech, and that we will honour that. If this does not work, I will come to you and ask you for the ability to offer more ec (up to 100) or 1 tech (App. Phys?). That will need to be polled. I will not go higher than that, unless asked.

[Drogue]

Sent to JDM, Herc and Maniac:

Greetings Cuspidore and Captain Hercules

As External Affairs Function, I come to you regarding the deal we are trying to broker.

With regards to your request for costs or an extra tech, I bring you our arguments:

You claim that you are spending an extra 200ec, and that is true, but you are also receiving an extra 2 techs for it. You gain the two techs from the angels and then two from us. Indeed, how you came across those techs is not of concern to us. You have spent 200ec to get two techs, but that is separate from our deal. Our deal was to trade two techs each (the two you received from the Angels, for 1 we currently have and 1 we are about to get). Your aregument for us to pay some of the costs of the techs is illogical. If we were to pay half the costs say, then we have both had an equal outlay, and would both have an equal claim to the two techs. Thus we would not trade you two techs as well for the equal share of those techs we already would have. Our Pact was founded on the idea of fair trade, one tech each, as brokered by myself and Flubber. We would like to honour that.

You also claim that the techs you are getting are worth less. We disagree strongly. We have met Miriam, and I will disclose details of how that happened later (for another deal). Ind Base is considerably important when faced with Miriam, as the synthmetal armour is needed to combat her aggressiveness and superior attacking forces. Also, Biogenetics gives you the ability to build the Rec Tanks, and leads to Gene Splicing, one of the most important techs. You would have to research or trade for it soon, since Gene Splicing is particularly important to aquatic factions. Moreover, Progenitor Psych is as near as completely useless as you can get, since there are no Progenitors on Chiron. Therefore we could use the lack of use argument just as well.

You also point out that you could get Ind Auto quicker, in 1 cycle than two. That is very true. However we have a quicker tech cycle, so that is not such a disadvantage to us, and with the penalty to you for changing, it may not be quicker actually. It will certainly not be half the time as you claim. We do realise that you are ahead regarding it though, and you are our Pact Brothers. Thus to reflect that, and as a mark of goodwill, we offer 25ec (being the amount you gave us last time, plus inflation).

Our Pact was built on cooperation and equal trade. We offer one tech for another, and we do not hold back on any tech. We also lose out on inefficiency through changing, however if you were to agree not to trade Biogenetics, nor build the HGP, for 25 turns, we would see that as a fair trade. Biogenetics is still an extremely important tech, especially for you, as mentioned above. We both want Ind Auto ASAP, and this gives us both the advantage compared to others. You came to us with this deal, and thus you seemed to think it was worthwhile. We agree, and would like to trade as originally suggested. Adding extra things at this stage just complicates it, and makes it seem to some in the CyCon that you wanted to get us to agree and then ask for extra stuff. I do not believe that, I trust you and I want to make this deal, which is why I have fought to get a small concession, as Flubber did for us last time, as a mark of goodwill. You mentioned about the lack of time, which would have been much eased if you had not sprung these concessions you wanted. I understand that some of the Pirates feel as some CyCon do, that the other side is trying to get the better deal, at the expense. I assure you that is not the case from our side. We wish friendship and trade that we both gain from.

Thus we offer:
Biogenetics
Ind Auto
25ec
The inefficiency we have from delaying tech

We wish from you:
Ind Econ
Ind Base
A promise not to transmit Biogenetics or build the HGP for 25 turns

I think that is fair, since you would possibly get Ind Auto slightly before us without the trade, and the 25ec should compensate you for that

Please tell me if this needs changing, and I will PM with an alteration. Speed was of the essence, so I thought I'd send it first, then get you to check it