Announcement

**Drogue** · June 26, 2003, 15:57

If you wish. I was waiting until I had an offer for you (which I do now, and was about to post) before I came before you to discuss it. I have received this PM from JDM:

It's troubling that you did not receive the previous message at all, let alone in a timely fashion; it was sent by regular email to the address you sent your email from.

Anyways, we pirates must right away select a replacement tech for the Infonets you'all so graciously provided, presumably from the list we sent you. A number of our Cap'ns are desirous of obtainin' the PlanNets tech, however, as I am sure you will appreciate, were we to research it ourselves, that would be a waste of our mutual research capabilities in that we could instead have researched a tech that neither or us already has. Since we will also get this new research target the following turn, there is not sufficient intervening time for further negotiations. We understand the level 1, level 2 thing (although it is often a meaningless distinction and they all cost the same to research), but we are unable to trade Doc:Flex at this time and have no other level 2 tech to offer. However, we may be able to offer a modest number of Pieces of Eight in an attempt to make the deal seem more even to those in the collective who adher to the level 1/ level 2 analysis. You might consider also that the fact that we are offering you a choice of the 3 techs is also a form of additional payment. This is an urgent matter for us, please reply at your earliest convenience.

The terraforming offer was for (sort of) real, but the details and schedule would have to be worked out and might be challenging, especially in the early game.

Pacting is certainly an option we are also considering and are reasonably amenable to, although current tech matters are currently occupying the Council's time.

the Cuspidore

I apologised for the email loss, possibly down to my shakey email account ATM. I said that we would not be able to trade Planetary Networks for a level 1 tech, as that was what was said on the last discussion about this. I also said that we would be happy to trade Biogenetics for either Social Psych or Industrial Base. He mentioned that they would consider money for Planetary Networks, and I said if he were to offer a level 1 tech and a few Ec, to make us an offer and I would see.

What should we do? If they don't want Biogen (he seems a little miffed that we won't trade Planetary Networks for their new tech, yet they won't trade Doc Flex) then do we offer Applied Physics (level 1) as a straight swap, or ask for tech and money for Planetary Networks. We could possibly say that we won't trade Planetary Networks for anything other than Doc Flex, although I'm not too bothered about Doc Flex ATM. I am happy trading tech for tech, but I know others feel differently. I think if we don;t give them Plan Nets in trade, they will find the PUT and trade fit with them instead, meaning we don't get the benefit. Therefore, I vote that we trade as much as possible, while we have the advantage of a trading partner. Another option is to say we would only trade that to a Pact Brother, and ask them to sign. Then we know they won't double cross us with probes. What do people think? I need info ASAP.

**Maniac** · June 26, 2003, 16:10

They asked me to negotiate with them in your absence. After first refusing to give them PlaNets just like that, Flubber sent a PM to me that they would research PlaNets anyway, if we didn't give it to them. After that I said I then agreed with the trade, but I said it first needed to be discussed among the Consciousness. I've asked for a day, so I've bought us some time. I'll post the PM details in a while, when Poly is not so busy.

**Drogue** · June 26, 2003, 16:20

I have been told by JDM. I was able to talk, it's just the used email, and my system isn't so good. He said you had agreed to trade for Planetary Networks. I am also for it, however JDM wants assurances now. Should we go for it. If we agree to trade for it? Shall we ask for a no trade on embargo?

**Drogue** · June 26, 2003, 16:27

I received

Ahoy Prime Function:
In your time away from the commlinks and feeling a bit busy myself, I deputized Cap'n Flubber (he styled himself Temporary Ambassador Flubber) to find someone to negotiate with - he managed to contact Secondary Function Maniac, to whom I had previously copied my message to you in a (futile at the time) attempt to find someone else to discuss this with. In any event, it appears that Temporary Ambassador Cap'n Flubber was able to make a convincing enough case for the trade of Social Psych for Planetary Nets to change Secondary Function Maniac's position on the subject (is SF Maniac fond of XenoWeed?) and in his opinion likely changing the majority on your end to allow for that trade. Hopefully, that is all true and will happen OK. Some reassurances on your part that the deal is indeed happening would be greatly appreciated so that any overly suspicious Cap'ns will be convinced that the deal is for real (as we will have to commit to the Social Psych right away).
Yours,
the Cuspidore

PS: once this is settled, we can get down to the business of dealing with other matters, such as joint research planning and pacting, etc. - BB

from JDM.

I have provisionally written

We can certainly commit to trading it for something, but our fears would be greatly eased if you would agree to trade Doc. Flex, or if we were Pact Brothers, as giving probe foils to a faction that is not willing to trade Doc. Flex. has worried some people.

I am afraid we can give no definate assurances that we will trade Planetary Networks, as much of the faction is undecided. However both myself and Maniac would, although we are a little uneased. Would you be willing to sign an embargo to say that you won't trade it on to other factions, and that you will not use them against us (as forbidden by our treaty)?

Is this OK, too far, not far enough? Time is of the essence here.

**Maniac** · June 26, 2003, 17:15

Drogue, IMO we have to do everything to prevent them from choosing PlaNets. I'd just say we agree with the deal. We can change opinions later, like ask for some more cash or so if we give them PlaNets...

Right now, we just need to keep the negotiational advantage!

Below my PM conversations for those interested in my methods of diplomacy:

************

My response to Cuspidore's PM:

Hi JohnDMuller,

I've just read this PM, and I don't know if you have already received a response (to which persons have you sent this PM btw?), so I may be saying things twice. Also Drogue has only provided us in the Consciousness with a summary of the diplomatic exchanges, not the full PMs, so I'm not aware of the exact details. Perhaps you could send your PMs to other persons besides Drogue in the future? Besides Drogue, other active CyCon members are in order of activity me, Corellion (our current Foreign Affairs Function btw), Cedayon/TKG/DeathByTheSword and Chaunk. Should we in the future send our diplomatic mail to other persons besides you too?

Anyway, I don't know if I'm releasing "sensitive information" by telling this to you, but what follows is the majority opinion in the Consciousness:

It is not so much the level 1 / level 2 tech difference that is keeping us from trading PlaNets to you. It is rather the fact that PlaNets will allow you to build probe foils. That in itself is not really a problem (after all we proposed a pact, so you would get infiltrator information anyway). What disturbed some of us in the Consciousness was that the Pirates refused to trade Doc:Flex. Then our logic went as follows: if you refuse to grant us the ability to build probe foils (by giving us Doc:Flex), then why should we grant you that ability (by giving you PlaNets)? IMO Doc:Flex seems an (thé) only fair countertech for PlaNets. Giving us a modest amount of Eights won't change that.

What three techs are you offering us btw? The only two Drogue mentioned were IndBase and SocPsych. If you would choose one of those btw, SocPsych would bear our preference.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
Second Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness

As you can see I asked him to send PMs to all the most active CyCon members. That should make discussion easier and quicker.

I then thought to play it open and say exactly why we are reluctant to trade PlaNets. Not so diplomatic I know. I'm not really fit for diplomacy.

I said SocPsych bore our preference, as I thought it was mentioned in the SP thread, we should get a rec commons firs before starting on an SP.

Then I saw I had received the following PM from Flubber:

Are you authorized to negotiate tech trades for the cyborgs??

The cuspidore has given me negotiating privileges in an attempt to make a deal. Please have a representative of your government pm me here or email me at sharris4141@yahoo.com to discuss terms

Obviously he was unaware of the PM I just sent to johndmuller. So I replied:

Well, we haven't got such a strict government hierarchy in the CyCon. But if the Prime Function or Foreign Affairs Function is absent, I'm the one with the highest authority, yes. I just sent a PM to johndmuller btw. This is the transcript:

*snip - read above*

He replied:

Our logic is simpler

WE will switch and have Plan nets in a few turns if you do not trade with us. Neither of us garners any additional benefit and we will have probe foils.

If you do agree to trade,we will forgo researching plan nets and instead garner another tech. We will benefit by getting that other tech and by providing it to you, we will share the benefit with you exactly equally.

If we trade we will have plan nets at exactly the same time as if we research it ourselves. ( I assume we would do the trade when we get that additional tech) The only difference from the no-trade scenario is that we will both have the same EXTRA tech. What can be fairer than that?

My reaction was "Damn, you smart bastard". I wanted to prevent him from choosing PlaNets, so I pretended to agree with a PlaNets<->SocPsych deal. If PEACE then chose something else as research project, we could still change opinion, screw them royally, deny them PlaNets and propose another tech exchange deal. To allow a change of heart, I said it would need to be polled in the CyCon to confirm me decision. Therefore I replied:

Hi Flubber,

Hmm...

Good point indeed!

It doesn't really make any difference at all then. Well in that case I would agree on the tech trade and give you PlaNets in three turns, or whenever it is that you will have researched SocPsych (or IndBase if SocPsych isn't available...). As I can't make a definite decision, a poll will of course have to be organized to confirm a PlaNets<->SocPsych tech trade, but since I previously voted against trading PlaNets to you, the majority will shift in favour of PlaNets trading when I change my vote. So I think I can say we have a deal!

PlaNets for SocPsych?

Greetings,

Second Function Mani Alpha-3

While I was writing the above PM, I received this PM btw:

we believe the logic of my proposal is unassailable-- If our research ends in year 21xx we can then have

no trade-- we will have plan nets and no additional benefit to either side

trade-- we will have plan nets and we will both have exactly the same tech in addition to what the no-trade scenario would bring

We do not see adding any additional compensation since in either scenario we get plan nets so in essence the only question for you is whether you are willing to let us get soc psych in return for you getting soc psych.

Please respond to at least let me know when a final decision may be forthcoming. WE wanted to know before we choose our tech. If you delay we will choose to research plan nets, in which case , to do a trade, you would have to gift us plan nets in advance of our completing it ourselves

Temporary Ambassador Flubber

Damn, he said what I feared most: PEACE choosing PlaNets, putting us for a "fait accompli", and us loosing our advantage in tech negotiations.

I simply replied to be sure:

Hi Captain Flubber,

I just sent you a PM. I hope you've received it before opening your turn.

Just to be sure I'll say it again

: I agree with trading PlaNets.

Greetings,

Mani-Alpha-3

I hope I didn't make it too obvious I didn't want him to open the turn and choose PlaNets...

Some time later I got the following PM, again from Flubber:

Agreed

The only issue I would have is that I fear we may have to switch to plan nets now anyway as we would not want our plans to go awry if the majority somehow still votes against the trade anyway-- There are game mechanisms to deal with this though ( such as your "gifting" plan nets to us on the turn we will discover it and us gifting our new tech in return

Please confirm when the deal is sealed.

Temporary ambassador Flubber

Then I thought: "****. I shouldn't have told him we had to poll first. I simply should've told him I agreed with the deal, making him choose SocPsych."
Sorry for my big mouth...

Anyway, I replied:

Hi Flubber,

Please confirm when the deal is sealed.

Do you mean to confirm when a poll has a majority in favour of trading? I hope not, because that may take another day before enough members have voted.

Greetings,

Maniac

Response from Flubber:

Ah this is the tricky part of a democracy game

In a regular PBEM if a player says they have a tech trade deal thats good enough .

But in a democracy game, theoretically you could be outvoted even if, as here, the proposal is only sensible and logical and should appeal to cycon sensibilities. So when does a deal become a deal that we are entitled to rely on ??

I trust you to be honorable but we are all subject to our populace.

I appreciate that it will take a day or so to confirm the deal. In the meantime we will likely choose plan nets and then have to receive a gift from you of plan nets on the turn we would otherwise discover it and then gift back the new tech. I trust that this mechanism would work for you ??

Temporary Ambassador Flubber

Flubber has outwitted me.

Sorry pals.

My last attempt to win some time, and the current end of the discussion:

Hi Flubber,

Drogue has come on-line, and he said that perhaps we should ask some extra cash besides after all.
Also, just hypothetically for the moment, but what would you be thinking of trading for Applied Physics instead of PlaNets?

As you can see, there is still discussion on the exact terms of the deal. So it might be smart to wait another day before opening the turn, if you don't mind the waiting.

Greetings,

Maniac

Oh yeah, during that discussion with Flubber I also received a PM from johndmuller:

Thank you for your prompt and forthright reply - a straight-shooter such as yerself'd make a fine pirate matey.

I have involved Cap'n Flubber in the negotiations, as it has been killing me timewise today, so you may next here from either of us (who may or may not have informed the other in advance of exactly what they were saying (although I believe that we will be generally on the same page anyway)).

Briefly addressing some specifics -

Altogether, I sent this message to Drogue, Archaic and Tkg, besides yourself, with varying mention of who else it went to (as I was hoping each one would be the last, but you'all kept diaappearing).

Some of our Cap'ns are pretty hard line about not trading Doc:Flex at this time - I see the relevance of the comparison with PlanNets, but they might say that there are more applications, (particularly warships which would be a threat to us, but also transports and seaformers which would be a benefit to you) deriving from Doc:Flex - that PlanNets is somewhat more one-dimensional. Whatever, that would be for arguing, and hopefully we can work our way around this so that we don't have to research the PlanNets ourselves at the cost of a foregone tech between the two of us and perhaps a cost to our developing friendship as well.

The third tech was Progen Psych, I can see why Drogue might have not bothered mentioning it.

BTW, my email is johndmuller@msn.com - I can't say which is more dependable all around, given that I could delete a message accidentally as spam and apparently Drogue & I misconnected as well, but Poly is frustratingly slow and sometimes broken, so that is no fun either.

the Cuspidore

Due to Poly slowness I replied to him using hotmail, so I don't have a copy of what I wrote him. Basically I said I had already settled the discussion with Flubber, and asked him if Archaic was a typing error.

**Drogue** · June 26, 2003, 17:34

Ok, do not fret Maniac, you ahve served us well. JDM all us offered us money too. I agree about sayign we agree to it. I have said we are pretty sure but can say nothing definite until we have the results of the poll. I think we will be able to, but asked for some money to sway us. Flubber is good, but we can outsmart them later. We may lose favour if we say no later however. Flubber is right about the trading, however we can say to them "you get Soc Psy too for nothing, is it worth a few gold to agree get it, to convince some of the CyCon?" However I think if we get a straight swap, that will be good. However we can say to his post about them getting it anywhere the same thing about Doc Flex. I think we will do ok. At the worst we get Soc Psy for Plan Nets, at the best, we get some Ec too. We can use JDM's PM stating

However, we may be able to offer a modest number of Pieces of Eight in an attempt to make the deal seem more even to those in the collective who adher to the level 1/ level 2 analysis.

as a weapon, that we accepted it presuming that, as it was offered. What do you think?

**Drogue** · June 26, 2003, 17:35

What's JDMs hotmail btw? Can we see if we can get him into 'Poly chat? Then with both of us, we might get consessions, all in the name of convincing the others

**Maniac** · June 26, 2003, 17:57

johndmuller@msn.com

**Method** · June 26, 2003, 18:18

i agree

**Drogue** · June 26, 2003, 18:22

We have a majority, since we never get more than 6 in a poll, we have 3, and if there is a tie, the person playing (one of us 2) decides

I have PMed JDM already to say we will trade, but with details to be negotiated

**Corellion** · June 27, 2003, 00:41

Hmmm... they seem awfully desparate to get us to trade them PN. And they seem to keep pushing that they are going to research it immediately.

It seems to me that they are trying to throw us into a panic, forcing us to trade away PN to them for little, so that we can get some use out of the trade. The reason I think they are doing this is that they have little intention of actually researching it soon. They want us to think that they are going to, so that we dump it now. I suggest you tell them that we can research social psych ourselves too, and that we may just research Doc: Flex (pull their own stunts on them). Their argument that "we could research it anyway" is a fallacy, given that that is not the point of the trade... the idea is WHEN you ge the tech. They want it sooner, and if they research it, they have to get it later. That is the key here. Let's keep the diplomatic ping-pong going back and forth and get them a little nervous.

Of course, I could be wrong.

**Drogue** · June 27, 2003, 06:48

Corellion: I don't think they are trying to make us panic. I think they simply want PN ASAP. You do have a point though, but JDM has been much less forceful in his correspondance with me. As for getting it sooner, they will get it in in 3 turns if they research it now IIRC, as they will if they research Soc Psy, and then trade for PN. They get it just as soon researching it themselves, but they don't get Social Psych doing that.

Manaic: I suggest you conveniently forget the correspondance with Flubber, as he is a far better negotiator, and has got us to agree to a straight trade (which isn't so bad). If we just go on what JDM and I have said, as both faction leaders, then he offered Ec. If we can get a few Ec (I was thinking of asking for 40 or 50, but would settle for 10 or 20, as that could give us a nice former rush or enough to rush the RC in Logic Loop if we wanted. If we only go on what JDM has said, as being official, we get better

**Maniac** · June 27, 2003, 08:31

After having slept a night over it, I agree with Corellion and I again think we should take a much stricter position about tech trading. The reason I was so quick to give in to Flubber last night was because I thought we desperately needed SocPsych to build a rec commons in Logic Loop. However, Drogue has said in another thread that he might agree with the nervestaple tactic. Perhaps others might too. This makes SocPsych much less important right now. So we might reevaluate our position and re-ask Doc:Flex, or indeed still go for SocPsych but ask cash. As Drogue said, I'd begin asking 50 ec, but personally I wouldn't go under 30 ec, seeing the big importance of the PlaNets tech, (and seeing we need the cash to rush a rec commons/tanks in Logic Loop

.)

Has there been any communications btw between one of us and a Pirate since last night?

**Googlie** · June 27, 2003, 09:27

Originally posted by Drogue
Can we see if we can get him into 'Poly chat? Then with both of us, we might get consessions, all in the name of convincing the others

How about a Cycon-Peace Secure Commlink maybe? (I've also posted this link in the PEACE private forum)

Announcement

PEACE diplomatic exchanges

PEACE diplomatic exchanges

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