Turns 2141-2160

[Makahlua]

I tagged Herc's email where he took a shot at it along to Tass; I finshed out the turn from the save he sent. Here it is for reference.

Googlie - I trash all but the final before I hit 'end turn' save and the one I pass on ( I only keep 5 turns or so at that); I don't know if that one will help any?

----- Original Message -----
From: "cathal.mullaghan" (email removed)
To: "Makahlua" (email removed)
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 7:14 PM
Subject: Peace 2155 turn

> Cap'n Maki
>
> Here's what I got after taking some risks.
>
> The key action was to engage the Cycon just outside L'il Accident (LA).
> The lazer squad (2-2-1) had 3 to 4 odds against beating the 4-3-1
> cycon unit but because of the Command centre boost can actually beat the
>
> cycon unit 1 time out of 3/4, When it does, there is collateral
> damage to the 4~1-1 units. Next the veteran rover 1-1-2 takes on the
> 4~1-1 units and it has 2 moves; it can actually beat both of them. This
> leaves our two units still in LA but damaged.
>
> After getting this far, move the crawlers (one to 39,67 and the other
> to 38,68- you might as well have them working) to block the road from
> Henry Morgan's Boot (HMB). You will then be able to see what 's in HMB.
> All this buys us time.So we should
> have 2 crawlers blocking and a former blocking the road from HMB, plus
> two damaged units
> in LA. Next place a scout in the build Q at LA . With all those minerals
> it will complete in 2156 if the base isn't taken. It might be empty but
> still ours.
>
> Next sell off the Command centre ( in LA), this gives us enough ecs to
> complete the colony pod at Atlantis, ready for the transport next turn.
>
>
> I moved the Barque out of Pamlona to 42,62 . To give us the option of
> ambushing that cruiser in Liar's Lair ,if it leaves Liar's lair to go
> for our colony pod If their impact cruiser moves out of Liar's lair,
> feeling safe they just might leave LL empty with a scout in the build Q
> but not yet complete. We might just retake LL. If it spots our Barque at
> 42,62 then attacking us will also delay it. The veteran schooner in the
> fungus ( 40, 58) is also there to ambush any 4-1-6 cruiser en route to
> Atlantis.
>
> All of this is to buy us time
>
> At Pamplona, the idea would be to move the crawler into the base and
> disband it to build another barque and the former moved in as a defense
> unit.
>
> At Calico place a Buoy scout (quicker) in the build queue rather than a
> dock police.
>
> Then send map and techs to Hive and Drones? why not, they are going to
> give us SFF aren't they.
>
> What do you think?
>
> my turn attached mid mid 2155. There is still those workers at Atlantis
> to put on forests and to send the maps and techs to the Hive and Drones?
>
> Cap'n Hercules

[Hercules]

Well I think I better contribute to this discussion.

I downloaded the original save from the turn track, opened it looked around, moved a few units such as the cp to Yardarm. I looked to see what could be disbanded (command centre eg) and what could be rushed by cashing the crawlers, such as a new barque or possibly an impact craft at Pamplona.

Our most important rush if we could achieve it, was the CP in Atlantis.
The crawler on treasure islet allowed us to see what was in Liar's Lair, so I also had some ideas about using our gunboats to best defend our retreat.

Looking at Little Accident I noted our perilous position and wondered about whether to move the crawlers into the base or whatever. The odds on combat didn't look promising. I exited.

With these ideas I came back to the forum, to offer suggestions, to notice that Maki had already played most of the turn and crucially had not cashed in the command centre that would have enabled the completion of the CP at Atlantis.

As you can see I posted my concerns and also about not having waited. And I emailed Maki asking her to delay posting to the Drones.

I then went back to see what further options might be available.

I looked at L'l Accident again and thought we are going to lose this base anyway, what happens if we make a fight of it to delay its capture. I hoped our lazer might damage the 4-3-1 enough to allow our rover to kill it next and have a go at one of the impact rovers.

The outcome was better than I could have imagined. The 4-3-1 unit was destroyed and there was collateral damage on the impact rovers. I followed up with our veteran rover and the two impacts were destroyed. With this success we could stall LAs capture for an extra turn.

I could hardly believe our good fortune. I saved and exited.

However by this stage, my mid turn was played twice because as I wasn't the turn player; I had no need to save it.

While pleased with our good fortune I wondered if it was a one off or a likely outcome every so often.

Anyhow I posted the turn to Maki, explaining what I 'd done and with my further suggestions. I guess when she loaded the turn that triggered a third reload message.

Re the suggestion about altering the alpha.txt, I wouldn't know where to start.

Btw I have gone back to the turn and duplicated the battle success. The factor that changes things, incredibly, seems to be the selling of the Command Centre before engaging in combat. At the time I didn't reckon this made a difference but it does.

If you recall this was the prime reason (to have enough ecs to rush the CP in Atlantis) for asking for the stay in the first place. I must have sold this first before the battle.


So it has ended up like this because Maki played too quickly without waiting for comments and my reloaded turn - with the good fortune - became the one completed and posted.

[Googlie]

Herc:

I have replayed the turn another 10 times, each time selling the Command Center before initiating action.

I kille the CyCon units now 7 of the 10 times

I don't know why selling the Center has this effect, but it does.

However, the fact remains that the turn has been replayed.

But ......... as accusations regarding my impartiality have flowed as regards PEACE - CyCon interactions I will leave the decision on this to Tassadar.

We have exchanged many e-mails these last couple of days, so he has the benefit of my input and the testing results - I have also copied him on the relevant posts from this forum (I believe he still can't access the PEACE private forums)

I will support whatever decsion Tass makes

G.

[johndmuller]

Well, a somewhat more convoluted path than I would have imagined; however as I read it, it says that the reloads were merely Cap'n Hercules looking over the turn and exiting, looking over the turn and exiting - that the critical battle was fought without reloading after failed trials until a favorable outcome resulted (apparently it might take hundreds of tries to win anyway, not just 2 or 3, without there being another element - see Googlies trials, for example. Anyway, it seems that the reloads incorporated into the ultimate save were from Herc's preliminary examinations rather than from cheating, as our pure-as-the-driven-snow friends at the Cycon were so quick to allege.

Googlie:
-Apparently the random effects in this game are less than random enough, sometimes getting into patterns that even those of us with non augmented probablity routines can notice (witness the run of 'clonings' in your playtesting - that you cited as reason for reducing our starting navy by 50%) - said cloning, which I believe had not blessed us unitl just a few turns ago - at a time when we needed money desperately instead - and with a non-independent unit at that to add insult to injury, ending up being as much a burden as a blessing.
-Comrade Tass seemingly has access to this forum, allbeit through some mechanism other than being approved by Cap'n Herc - see his thread where he threatens to delete our underperforming members, which would have included me if had he enforced his threat literally.

[Hercules]

have replayed the turn another 10 times, each time selling the Command Center before initiating
action.

I kille the CyCon units now 7 of the 10 times

This was the main charge that somehow, some multiple reloadings obtained a victory against the odds. Thankfully you have now shown this was not the case.

Also the outcome was dependent on selling the Command Centre before the battle. As we have also shown, we had legitimate reason to do so ie to get the ecs to complete the CP, so it's not as if we (or I searched) for a random event to bring about this change in battle fortunes; it happened because we needed the ecs and there was nothing else left to sell.

[Nubclear]

-Comrade Tass seemingly has access to this forum, allbeit through some mechanism other than being approved by Cap'n Herc - see his thread where he threatens to delete our underperforming members, which would have included me if had he enforced his threat literally.

I accidently clicked the "Leave Group" link Ming has re-approved me into the forum, just as he did before.
And my purpose is not to simply delete members on a whim. I'm clearing deadwood, and if one canot even be bothered to post in a thread that the gods have created....
And Ming and I are in discussions to remove the members who have not posted.

Lucky that Ming could approve me into the forums, for Hercules certainly would not and my list only included a few members. That has now been updated.

[Hercules]

This is Tassador's ruling

I rule that PEACE has violated a rule. A precedent was set when Googlie ruled
Jamski must play his turn and not the Kody turn during the Hiverian coup.
As such, I enforce the following:

-The original turn, the turn PEACE played that did not attack CyCon, will
become the official turn.
-PEACE must not exploit any exploits that are either not known or not
allowed by rule of vote. Interpretation of the word "exploit" will rest with the
gods.

If PEACE refuses to submit to this ruling, I will play the PEACE turn for you.
If PEACE violates this ruling in the future, then I will play the PEACE turn 3
times in a row.

[Nubclear]

And I would appreciate it if PEACE were to hurry in carrying this out.

[Hercules]

A number of points:

First, there is no acknowledgement that we did not reload and reload to get a desired result in the cycon battle. In short that it was a legitimate battle result, and replicated by Googlie.
This was and remains, the principle Cycon allegation, as I understand it. And was proven to be wrong.

It is not as if, Maki, originally, fought the battle and lost. It was never fought at all.

Second, the difference with the Kody - Jamski affair was that Jamski was the official turn player for the Hive, Kody was not. In our case there is no dispute as to who the official turn player is.

Thirdly, the turn that Maki played and which you now say should be our turn, was not our official approved turn (and not posted), because, in error, the rest of the faction membership was not given enough time for their input. Our offical turn with the battle input was our official turn because it incorporated the wider range of faction views and suggestions by which our faction operates.

Fourthly,

PEACE must not exploit any exploits that are either not known or not
allowed by rule of vote. Interpretation of the word "exploit" will rest with the
gods.

What the hell does that mean.

Fifthly, we could just as easily voted another captain the turn player and asked that they, the new Cap'n, play the turn according to our factionwide wishes. This would have incorporated the battle but also the other faction wishes such as completing the CP at Atlantis and the ship, crawler and former deployment. With your 'ruling' these non controversial moves are denied us.

So I would ask you to consider these points rather than just make reference to a
'precedent'

[Nubclear]

And was proven to be wrong.

No. PEACE has already admitted to reloading and replaying because an order was missed.
It has been proven correct.

It is not as if, Maki, originally, fought the battle and lost. It was never fought at all.

That's fine.

Second, the difference with the Kody - Jamski affair was that Jamski was the official turn player for the Hive, Kody was not. In our case there is no dispute as to who the official turn player is.

Jamski was not officially recognized inside or outside of the Hive. He did not sucessfully perform the coup.

Thirdly, the turn that Maki played and which you now say should be our turn, was not our official approved turn (and not posted), because, in error, the rest of the faction membership was not given enough time for their input. Our offical turn with the battle input was our official turn because it incorporated the wider range of faction views and suggestions by which our faction operates.

I care not about how it wasn't approved by the rest of your faction. However you have a point in that it wasn't posted in the turn thread.

What the hell does that mean.

If the exploit it not known, and PEACE exploits it, then that wouldn't be good.
For example: If there was an exploit that destroyed all the other factions, and PEACE exploited it, well it just wouldn't be legal even if we didn't outright deny it.

[QUOTE} With your 'ruling' these non controversial moves are denied us.
[/QUOTE]

True, however would it really be fair of me to bar you from one move but not another?
Your strongest arguement was that the turn was not exactly posted, however it's the whole exploit issue. If I allow it now, then others who may find out about this will be able to point to it and say "You allowed it for them! Your obviously in PEACE' pocket!!!!11!" and that just wouldn't be good.

I'm sorry, but my ruling stands.

Your strongest argument

[Makahlua]

So I am playing from the mid that's posted here? From the beginning again? If I do that now, it's going to say 'reloaded' again and then what will CyCon say? I'm in agreement with Herc that having us start again from the original and replay might be all around more fair - and someone here in PEACE with a clean turn will need to do it.

/me confused

[Hercules]

In case you overlooked the original core allegation. Here it is again.

And it is regarding how a 2-2-1 hardened unit (your laser unit at LA) can defeat a 1-3-1 Disciplined
one (the defensive unit in the CyCon attacking force)

I must admit to being concerned, as in 25 tries I cannot destroy the CyCon plasma unit with the
PEACE laser unit so naturally I am suspicious of any different outcome - and when that particular
turn had at least 2 reloads, one wonders ......................

Googlie

This was what was proven to be wrong. The battle was won fairly.

I am still not clear what you mean by 'its the whole exploit issue'. What 'special ' play did we exploit?

Finally by disallowing all our suggestions you effectively present the Put/Cycon concoction (another one of your rulings) with an advantage because they can compare the posted turn with whatever is posted.

[FlameFlash]

I don't understand the allegations regarding Googlie, but I do know that Tass has been overly... combative, toward PEACE and should therefore not be involved in this process.

The 'disagreement' between Tass and Herc with Herc never authorizing Tass into the forum most certianly plays a part in this, as does the fact that even yours-truley felt as though he was being 'attacked' by Tass on MSN on Monday prior to his realizing that I had no idea what he was talking about.

A combative posture is not the correct posture for a moderator of any game, especially when the final ruling directly and severly damages the standing of said team.

I am currently keeping this in these private forums, but if I note that it has already been brought to the public at large I will post my thoughts there as well.

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar

And was proven to be wrong.

No. PEACE has already admitted to reloading and replaying because an order was missed.
It has been proven correct.

And again, er, no... as Herc stated, the main allegation wasn't simply turn reload, it was that an event that was deemed unlikely occured and the reload was done to make said unlikely event happen. That has been proven to not be the case.

It is not as if, Maki, originally, fought the battle and lost. It was never fought at all.

That's fine.

What's fine? Herc stated his reasons for not actually saving his original play around file and the reasons for Maki needing to play a double-reload error file due to Herc's playing with faction accepted orders?

Jamski was not officially recognized inside or outside of the Hive. He did not sucessfully perform the coup.

Correct, just as the turn Maki originally had half-way through (and never was completed and therefore is not official) was not recognized as the official turn.

I care not about how it wasn't approved by the rest of your faction. However you have a point in that it wasn't posted in the turn thread.

eh?

If the exploit it not known, and PEACE exploits it, then that wouldn't be good.
For example: If there was an exploit that destroyed all the other factions, and PEACE exploited it, well it just wouldn't be legal even if we didn't outright deny it.

True, but following reasonable pattern of military moves last isn't an exploit as I understand how Herc did it. Sell item, buy CP, attack.

With your 'ruling' these non controversial moves are denied us.

True, however would it really be fair of me to bar you from one move but not another?
Your strongest arguement was that the turn was not exactly posted, however it's the whole exploit issue. If I allow it now, then others who may find out about this will be able to point to it and say "You allowed it for them! Your obviously in PEACE' pocket!!!!11!" and that just wouldn't be good.

It is not an exploit issue as this 'exploit' is not an exact science but a fluke. Simply because the 'random' numbers were generated differently after the order of events was differentiated doesn't make it an exploit. Just as accepting something offered via comlink channels even though something else was accepted via e-mail is not an 'exploit' of PBEM but working within the 'rules' of the game.

For this to be deemed an actual exploit we would need at least two other similar situations in other scenarios where this situation would then be repeated.

I'm sorry, but my ruling stands.

No, it doesn't, because there is major question into your... bias, in this matter.

[johndmuller]

Obviously Tass is full of himself (and no doubt other stuff as well) and needs to throw his weight around (in our direction, as it happens) - perhaps due to pique at not being recognized here as a trustworthy neutral party or maybe just due to his own psychic things. Googlie bowing out to him was in effect a dismissal of our case.

In case anyone here is too new to remember, or needs memory refreshing, (Comrade) Tass, IIRC, was originally a member of the Hive, wanted to switch to another faction after the game had started (or the other way around maybe or something else along those lines), but was not allowed to, IIRC (and/or else was the cause of our initial restart). Perhaps the other faction was the PUT or the Cycon - and perhaps I am misremembering all of it, but I don't think so. In any case, the event that turned him into a supposed neutral party was when he revealed that he had given the game file to a supposed outside party who hacked passwords into all the factions, which he (Tass) couldn't resist using (the upside is that he confessed to all this - the downside is that he did it in the first place). Talk about exploits! He may also have been involved in revealing/publicizing the premature-end-of-game bug letting anyone see the game summary revealing the current positions of all the factions. If that is not enough - you also get the free vegie chopper and ginzu knives - he was probably the king of spamming the game threads before during and after all that - a regular loose cannon, in other words - that was why I didn't feel it necessary to intervene on his behalf if Cap'n Herc didn't want to recognize his 'god' credentials (In any event, I'll have to admit that Tass has the god 'complex' at least).