Turns 2141-2160

[Makahlua]

Yay, cheese!

/me breaks out the xenoshiraz!

[foolish_icarus]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Ya know what bothers me?
Every time I make a ruling against a faction, I'm accused of being in the pocket of another faction. It's almost like I can't be a neutral god unless I always rule in favor of every faction and against no one.

We don't want you to rule in favor of every faction, we want you to rule in favor of us


Frankly, if I correctly understand the basis of your ruling, it was pretty stupid...That we used an "exploit" that we didn't even know about and in fact is just a coincidental facet of the random number generator? Do you check other faction's turn permutations to make sure that one former movement or that suspicious building rush isn't causing "unfair exploits" etc. ?


Basically, what ramifications does this have for future turn play? Are we now forbidden to scrap command centers before battles and whatever other slew of odds-affecting actions may be found?

[Nubclear]

I would say so, yes.
If you seriously disagree with me this much...Create a poll on it!

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Ya know what bothers me?
Every time I make a ruling against a faction, I'm accused of being in the pocket of another faction. It's almost like I can't be a neutral god unless I always rule in favor of every faction and against no one.

eh?

So the fact that you just basically wrote "I'm right, you're wrong, I don't have to justify myself because I don't care what happens to your faction and will be horribly mean to you and play your turn badly if you don't cooperate" is neutral eh?

I don't think so.

I would say so, yes.
If you seriously disagree with me this much...Create a poll on it!

And there's the problem. We can't take this public without breaking the rule of discussing in-game elements without everybody knowing about said in-game elements.

Now if Googlie would post an official rules clarification poll which asked something about the randomizer function in SMAX as opposed to one of us simply posting a bunch of "We did X and Y happened, and Tass deemed X as a exploit because Y, under, another circumstance does Z, yet we can't tell you what X, Y, and Z are because then we'd be violating a previous rule and now the entire problem is moot anyway since we weren't allowed to draw it out longer due to threats from Tass..."

Yeah, that'd go over well...

[foolish_icarus]

too bad we couldn't post a poll before you made your decision

[Nubclear]

I don't think so

Yawn. I've already justified myself.
Just because YOU can't accept it doesn't mean it didn't happen

Yeah, that'd go over well...

Yes it would. It'd hurt your reputation more than it already has. Perhaps a little less bitter poll would help?
Because your all frothing at the mouth, I'll give a hand:

If an action causes a result not intended by the game creators (An "exploit"), yet it is not known (or at least has not been denied or accepted by the players of the demogame), should it be allowed?

OPTIONS: Yes, No, Put it up to vote before doing it, write in, xenobanana

Wasn't too difficult

too bad we couldn't post a poll before you made your decision

One can always post a poll.

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


Yawn. I've already justified myself.

If by justifying yourself you mean: I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it, then yes, you did.

Just because YOU can't accept it doesn't mean it didn't happen

And only again, because you made it happen.

Yes it would. It'd hurt your reputation more than it already has. Perhaps a little less bitter poll would help?
Because your all frothing at the mouth, I'll give a hand:

Hang you, you just said, "Yes it would" to my it being against the rules to post, or what?

PEACE's reputation?

What about the whole CyCon backstabbing thing?

What about the whole this incident was even made public just due to the fact that there was a turn reload error? I wonder what would have come of it had Herc e-mailed me to replay the turn so that there wouldn't be one iota of a reload error.

I'm wagering that the CyCon would have still whined and moaned about what had happened and it would have still be ruled as an 'exploit' and something we weren't allowed to do.

If an action causes a result not intended by the game creators (An "exploit"), yet it is not known (or at least has not been denied or accepted by the players of the demogame), should it be allowed?

OPTIONS: Yes, No, Put it up to vote before doing it, write in, xenobanana

Wasn't too difficult

Yeah... which is why I'm requesting somebody like Googlie to post it, again my point about a player posting it and other players would then start questioning what player X posted it. A mod posting it and everybody thinks "hey, somebody asked the mod a question and the mod is going to be basing his decision on said poll so I better actually think on it."

It's the same thing I had a problem with Googlie's ruling regarding the CyCon. Game altering rulings need to be decided on by the players not the watchers.

One can always post a poll.

Said poll is just not always official like something like this needs to be, so no, one could not always post a poll since said official was forcing our hand to get the turn out before such poll results would be finalized.

[Nubclear]

If by justifying yourself you mean: I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it, then yes, you did.

I've already said, it was an exploit and that's just not quite nice. I can't allow it. Yet you refuse to listen. It's most frustrating.

Hang you, you just said, "Yes it would" to my it being against the rules to post, or what?

No. I meant "Yes it would not go over well", which would mkae more sense if it were "No it wouldn't go over wel".

What about the whole CyCon backstabbing thing?

I'm not taking about CyCon. I'm talking about repeated PEACE attacks on the gods.

I wonder what would have come of it had Herc e-mailed me to replay the turn so that there wouldn't be one iota of a reload error.

I dunno. But if your trying to say that PEACE should begin concealing things from me to escape punishment...and if I find out about those things, it will not be good.
There are other factions on Planet that know this first hand.

I'm wagering that the CyCon would have still whined and moaned about what had happened and it would have still be ruled as an 'exploit' and something we weren't allowed to do.

And I'm wagering that if we did anything against you or even hinted that CyCon may have something, all you would still be frothing at the mouth.
Really.....I have to say though, my respect for Maka is pretty high right now. She isn't whining and moaning about my ruling and giving the gods a barrage of ad hominems. Instead, she has accepted it and moved on, like the rest of you should.
Makahlua

Game altering rulings need to be decided on by the players not the watchers.

Unless its pro-PEACE, right?

Said poll is just not always official like something like this needs to be, so no

If a player posts a poll, and the majority of the people say yes, then the gods will probably heed to the ruling of that poll.
And if you wanted to, you COULD make it retroactive. Of course, it would force you to divulge information, but if you have Hercs permission you can.

[foolish_icarus]

I'm talking about repeated PEACE attacks on the gods.

and that's where the problem lies


you'll excuse us for being a little bitter, the way we have been screwed over would make anyone sour

[Nubclear]

Googlie has not "screwed over" PEACE.
I have not "screwed over" PEACE.
Yet, somehow, Googlie and I are responsible for the WTC, Iraq, the Oklahoma city bombing, and the next door neighbors dog dying.
It's slightly frustrating.

[Hercules]

If an action causes a result not intended by the game creators (An "exploit")

I think Tass ignores the fact that selling the Command Centre was a proper in game thing for us to do at that time. Not to win a battle (unknown consequence) but to speed the building of the Colony pod. An action that we had discussed well before the turn arrived.


Re An action causing a result the designers never intended.

Playing SP or indeed in MP games, many times I have encountered unexpected battle results against the AI and others.

Indeed earlier in this game one of our ships survived an encounter with a IOD, against the odds. So unexpected results are part and parcel of the games attractiveness.

[foolish_icarus]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Googlie has not "screwed over" PEACE.
I have not "screwed over" PEACE.

And I didn't say you have. But look at it from our perspective:

We're getting our asses kicked by those treacherous arrogant cyborgs, and the first time we win something, not even enough to have an impact on the game, just enough to say "ha, we showed 'em good!" that once, and what happens? It gets revoked on a technicality, ultimately just to satisfy the 'borgs ego.
You and Googlie did the right thing in investigating their complaint, even though I disagree with your conclusion. Its the 'borgs who, if they weren't such pansies, wouldn't have bothered to raise a stink about it.

And we are pirates after all, albeit currently scurrying and hiding "laying low" pirates. We owe allegiance and reverance to no one.

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
I've already said, it was an exploit and that's just not quite nice. I can't allow it. Yet you refuse to listen. It's most frustrating.

Yes, you stated it was an exploit, pure and simple. Isn't the Stockpile bug in this fashion then also considered an 'exploit' yet why is this then banned? It should have been reported as a new bug to the game as a whole and then voted on just as the Stockpile bug was. That's my statement.

No. I meant "Yes it would not go over well", which would mkae more sense if it were "No it wouldn't go over wel".

Ah.

I'm not taking about CyCon. I'm talking about repeated PEACE attacks on the gods.

Eh? Attacks? Where? All I've read are discussions, though heated, regarding our feeling that you ruled without taking into consideration all of the facts.

I dunno. But if your trying to say that PEACE should begin concealing things from me to escape punishment...and if I find out about those things, it will not be good.
There are other factions on Planet that know this first hand.

OMG! Do you realize how silly that sounds? I'm saying, Herc could have gone, "er, I can't play it or there will be a reload message but we need an official turn played the way that we're wanting it played, so who else is active enough to play it, hey FF, are you willing to?"

"Sure, Herc, what do you want me to do?"

"[insert list of items]"

"No problem, I'll get it done tonight and send it over to Maki to post, sorry to hear there have been so many complications to playing the turn this time."

And that would have been the end of it. I know I wouldn't have noticed the supposed 'exploit' without all of the hubbub that you started by calling it such and ruling against it.

And I'm wagering that if we did anything against you or even hinted that CyCon may have something, all you would still be frothing at the mouth.

Didn't really understand that one... could you reword it please?

Really.....I have to say though, my respect for Maka is pretty high right now. She isn't whining and moaning about my ruling and giving the gods a barrage of ad hominems. Instead, she has accepted it and moved on, like the rest of you should.
Makahlua

Unless its pro-PEACE, right?

Sure.

Er, no! That's standard. In every game I've played in when there's a problem, the players decide if it should be accpeted or not, not the CMN (you aren't a 'god' after all, Tass.)

If a player posts a poll, and the majority of the people say yes, then the gods will probably heed to the ruling of that poll.
And if you wanted to, you COULD make it retroactive. Of course, it would force you to divulge information, but if you have Hercs permission you can.

And you see, there wouldn't even have been a need to attempt a retroactive one if it wasn't for your insistence on 'play it or I'll screw you all over when I play your turn.'

And I'm still noting that rather than there being an unbiased poll by you (or googlie, though he's wisely washed his hands of this situation, minus the playtesting that seemingly wasn't integrated into your decision) you're pushing for me or another PEACE member to post so that everybody would be going, 'hey, PEACE are aiming for some kind of point... what could it be? I'll do some digging.'

[Makahlua]

Really.....I have to say though, my respect for Maka is pretty high right now. She isn't whining and moaning about my ruling and giving the gods a barrage of ad hominems. Instead, she has accepted it and moved on, like the rest of you should.

Makahlua

/me snorts

Accepted it? Hardly.

But I am no great debater, and others have brought up my concerns with better, uh eloquence? I'm just doing my bit to keep the -game- moving, in the interest of I don't want to see it die just when it's getting intersting. That, and foolish_icarus pretty much summed up my feeling a post or two ago Sorry if this makes your respect for me go down, but I really am a rabble-rousing pirate rogue at heart

/me highfives foolish_icarus

[Nubclear]

Its the 'borgs who, if they weren't such pansies, wouldn't have bothered to raise a stink about it.

True, however I'm not the ethical police (or else the only factions left would probably be the Believers and the Angels ).
If you want to get revenge on CyCon, attacking me probably isn't the best way to do that

It should have been reported as a new bug to the game as a whole and then voted on just as the Stockpile bug was.

But a decision had to be made, and it was made: It's not allowed.
If a poll comes up and the people say it is allowed, then its now allowed. Yay.

All I've read are discussions, though heated,

I'm saying,

And I'm saying by doing that, if I ever found out about it, i'd be highly suspicious.

Didn't really understand that one... could you reword it please?

Rhetoric. Ignore it

That's standard. In every game I've played in when there's a problem, the players decide if it should be accpeted or not, not the CMN

Different game then, eh?

you're pushing for me or another PEACE member to post so that everybody would be going, 'hey, PEACE are aiming for some kind of point... what could it be? I'll do some digging.'

And then you could kindly tell them to mind their own business.

'play it or I'll screw you all over when I play your turn.'

Oh come now It's not like I would destroy PEACE, though tempted I would be.
The most I would have done is press end turn, which probably would have screwed PEACE over

Again: Invade CyCon and destroy all of them, or ally with the Hive and destroy CyCon, or do whatever to get revenge against CyCon.
Trust me, attacking me is a really bad way to make them cry