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[Drogue]

Originally posted by Archaic
You whimpered before when I started debating in this thread. Is this an invitation?

It is not my thread, and therefore not mine to give.

Originally posted by Archaic
Efficiency? Efficiency is good, but Economy is better for our current number of bases.

Opinion labelled as fact, like most of what I read of yours on this issue.

Originally posted by Archaic
Eco-support? You put undue emphasis on it.

Controling MW and IoDs? Pah. Useless things at this stage of the game. Conventional Units surpass them.

The friendship of Deirdre? I'd rather the friendship of someone with a decent economy and who is closer to our territories. Say....Morgan.

Use units outside of base squares? What is your obsession with sending military units outside the PK territories anyway? Use Probe Teams/Foils or other unarmed units. We don't need to attack anyone with a direct assult anyway.

-2 Growth later in the game is fine.....but we're not in the late game. We're still expanding and TRYING TO GROW.

All as I said, it depends what you value more. You obviously value more energy, myself and Pande obviously don't. We all know your opinion on them, you think we overestimate them, we think you underestimate them. Is there really anything new you've said here? Native units are a lot more useful than you give them credit for. They may not be as good as conventional units (although I think they are, especially with +2 Planet, fighting decent defensive units, and before Fusion Power) but they are free, which is a big bonus. Moreover, IoDs can act as armed transports, something there is not a conventional unit for.

Originally posted by Archaic
FM isn't just "some extra energy". It's better research. Better conditions of life for our citizens (No more of Pan's Child Labour!). Better fostering of international relationships though trade. And much more.

It's better research, more Ecs and more psych, depending on your settings. That's more energy to me. And despite what you claim, and your beliefs on a FM with laws, with services etc. that is not what this is about. We have to choose between pure FM, pure Planned and pure Green, as we have no other choices. In pure FM, you have child labour, if labour is worth the childrens time, unless our government votes it illegal, which is exactly the same as Planned. FM does not rid us of child labour at all. We get no better international relations under FM, since we loss Morgan (a very underdeveloped hinderance to our expansion, who will be no help defending ourselves against the Hive) and gain Deirdre (a powerful nation, no hinderence to colonization and who is currently winning the fight against the Spartans): I know who I would prefer to be an ally of. We may get more research, and thus more trade, but considering we're ahead of everyone else (except Zak now?) in terms of technology, we will hardly get more trade from it.

Originally posted by Archaic
With a 20% Psych Rate? Doubtful. You *do* realise just how much that is under FM, and how much it increases as more and more facilities are built? You constantly overestimate Drone Problems for FM, yet they're worst under your own Planned Economics. Typical.

Worse under FM? But we have 3 exploration units for a start outside of base, with more coming. Even if at the moment there are less drones with 20% psych FM, it won't stay that way when we start on the Hive proper, as Pande has said.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Drogue
Say a statement and then leave... Great arguing Archaic. Green is certainly a viable solution, if you value efficiency, eco-support, controling MW and IoDs, help against worm rape, the friendship of Deirdre and the ability to explore and use units outside of base squares more that some extra energy. Yes the growth is a bad thing, but we have had +2 from growth for some time, and then having a -2 for some time, which is at a less important time (less need for growth later on in the game) is better than having 0 growth all along from FM.

You whimpered before when I started debating in this thread. Is this an invitation?

Efficiency? Efficiency is good, but Economy is better for our current number of bases.

Eco-support? You put undue emphasis on it.

Controling MW and IoDs? Pah. Useless things at this stage of the game. Conventional Units surpass them/

The friendship of Deirdre? I'd rather the friendship of someone with a decent economy and who is closer to our territories. Say....Morgan.

Use units outside of base squares? What is your obsession with sending military units outside the PK territories anyway? Use Probe Teams/Foils or other unarmed units. We don't need to attack anyone with a direct assult anyway.

-2 Growth later in the game is fine.....but we're not in the late game. We're still expanding and TRYING TO GROW.


FM isn't just "some extra energy". It's better research. Better conditions of life for our citizens (No more of Pan's Child Labour!). Better fostering of international relationships though trade. And much more.

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
The two examples you quote are only for next turn. As long as we grow, we'll have more and more troubles with drones, and FM will only increase these problems. If its still feasible to go FM right now without experiencing too much drones problems, I doubt it will still be the case when we'll really be at war with the Hive and when we'll have even more bases, even more populated.

With a 20% Psych Rate? Doubtful. You *do* realise just how much that is under FM, and how much it increases as more and more facilities are built? You constantly overestimate Drone Problems for FM, yet they're worst under your own Planned Economics. Typical.

[Pandemoniak]

The two examples you quote are only for next turn. As long as we grow, we'll have more and more troubles with drones, and FM will only increase these problems. If its still feasible to go FM right now without experiencing too much drones problems, I doubt it will still be the case when we'll really be at war with the Hive and when we'll have even more bases, even more populated.

[Drogue]

Say a statement and then leave... Great arguing Archaic. Green is certainly a viable solution, if you value efficiency, eco-support, controling MW and IoDs, help against worm rape, the friendship of Deirdre and the ability to explore and use units outside of base squares more that some extra energy. Yes the growth is a bad thing, but we have had +2 from growth for some time, and then having a -2 for some time, which is at a less important time (less need for growth later on in the game) is better than having 0 growth all along from FM.

[Archaic]

Except that it would kill our growth, undesirable at this stage when we're still supposedly following an ICS strategy. *YAWN* Oh yes, and we wouldn't have all the nice Golden Ages we'd have under FM if those troops were pulled back and that one Rec Commons was completed (Which is completed next turn anyway, is it not?).

*Leaves*

[Pandemoniak]

A switch to green in about 7 turns should change the problem

[lucky22]

We experienced a significant number of drone riots last session. I am of course in favor of an infrastructural solution, but unless the number of units away from base renders the point moot, Archaic may be entitled to his gloat around our decision to remain at planned. Please tell me I'm wrong. (I wish I was up and running at home so I could just look at the current game for myself, but we haven't yet gotten into order since moving in mid-December.)

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
Two questions for STEPist and CCCPians :

1. Should both the CCCP and STEP favor an overall policy to Green as soon as it becomes available, in order to avoid splitting of votes ?

Yes.

2. What should be our policy toward Deirdre ?
She would probably be glad to make a Pact for a tech, I would agree if it is still "Doctrine : Loyalty ", as in the current turn.

A pact is optimum, even if it weren't for Doctrine:Loyalty.

[Drogue]

That's certainly a good idea. If it comes up, I shall vote that way.

[Pandemoniak]

She currently would pact us for Doctrine : Loyalty, but she would remain "Ambivalent". To me the best thing is to go green as soon as possible (probably in like 7 turns), and the turn right after we ask Deirdre to pact us

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
Two questions for STEPist and CCCPians :

1. Should both the CCCP and STEP favor an overall policy to Green as soon as it becomes available, in order to avoid splitting of votes?

I would say yes. But I would want a few turns of pop boom, and a few decent bases first. Build CC's now, wait about 20 turns, then switch to Green. Then we get decent population, good efficiency and can get MWs to help annoy/attack Yang.

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
2. What should be our policy toward Deirdre ?
She would probably be glad to make a Pact for a tech, I would agree if it is still "Doctrine : Loyalty ", as in the current turn.

I doubt it ATM. We are running Planned, and she doesn't like that. We have a treaty, did soem tech trading, I would say wait a little while before we try for Pact, as in, as soon after we go to Green as possible.

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Main_Brain
Warlord of the Drones
Prince of Underground
King of PlanetBusters
and proud Owner of a Punishment Sphere.

I will remember that matter when the Revolution comes!
I always knew the Ruling Class doesnt knoiw nuttin' 'Bout the Common Drone..

:=)

I'm a prole, thank you very much! I'll just keep telling myself "... he's not not a brutalist because he's a drone, many drones are warm and loving people. Why, some of my best friends are drones!"

[Pandemoniak]

Two questions for STEPist and CCCPians :

1. Should both the CCCP and STEP favor an overall policy to Green as soon as it becomes available, in order to avoid splitting of votes ?

Personally, I do.

2. What should be our policy toward Deirdre ?
She would probably be glad to make a Pact for a tech, I would agree if it is still "Doctrine : Loyalty ", as in the current turn.

[Main_Brain]

Warlord of the Drones
Prince of Underground
King of PlanetBusters
and proud Owner of a Punishment Sphere.

I will remember that matter when the Revolution comes!
I always knew the Ruling Class doesnt knoiw nuttin' 'Bout the Common Drone..

:=)

[lucky22]

A while back in the recreation commons folks were discussing posting status (settler, warlord, etc.). I contributed at that time with the comment that Main_Brain was probably the only active ACDemogamist of my vintage who was also a 'warlord'. Later, I saw he was a 'prince'. It occurs to me that because Main_Brain is a drone, my comment could well reflect some latent classism on my part. The unconscious mind is a terrible thing to taste!