CCCP's Workshop.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
The fact is that the original is more worthy of trust than any translation. Especially seeing that the "industrial" aspect -- therefore involving factories -- is only mentionned in the english translation, and is not present in the others translations.

If the translation wasn't an accurate representation of their intent, would it have been approved in the first place? Material and Industrial are two very different words. Considering that both Marx and Engels were fluent in English and lived in London for long periods, how can you honestly deny that this is an accurate representation of their wishes?

Bloody hell, I don't even know why we're splitting hairs over this issue of semantics. It means the same thing even with your flawed translation.

Combination of education with industrial production
Combination of education with material production

In other words, the children go to school to learn, AND to produce things. There's nothing there to even suggest these are Apprenticeships or technical education. If you didn't notice, it says combination, not integration.

Originally posted by Main_Brain
As someone who read the original I can savely say that It was meant that Education would LATER lead to higher Production.
Which is.. right :=)

Education leads to higher productivity levels, but that's certainly not the intent of this phrase.

Originally posted by lucky22
This comment distorts your arguement a little, Archaic. No, Pan didn't point to context but dismissing it out of hand because he in particular didn't is a mistake. Child labor was the norm in the 19th century.

Irrelevant. It's still immoral (ie. Wrong) to FORCE a child into labour, which is what Marxism promotes.

Originally posted by lucky22
since when were apprenticeships and internships "not actual labor"? Anyway, this is my (and no doubt others') modernization, intended in case we need to toe the party line for whatever reason.

They're not technical educations, apprenticeships and internships to begin with. The arguement was over Pan supporting child labour. He said Marxism was never wrong. So your modernized Marxism doesn't count here, only the original form. If he was never wrong, then he shouldn't be supporting Forced Child Labour, should he? Oops, looks like he made a boo boo. It's just up to Pan now if he wants to admit or not that Marxism has had its flaws from the very beginning and that Marx promoted Forced Child Labour.

Originally posted by lucky22
Right. an education instead of no education while doing what they would be doing otherwise- working. The notion of proletarian kids not working would be alien.

How do you come to the conclusion that I'm Anti-Education? Slippery Slope falacy at work? I'm very much *FOR* free and manditory education, with a heavy slant towards the sciences (Including the social science of economics) and life skills (Read as "Budgeting" and "Business Skills", since by the time we'd landed here on planet, we certainly were beyond needing unskilled grunts, especially with our advances in robotics since landing. What we *need* are more white collars.). What I'm *AGAINST* is the combination of Forced Labour (manual labour or not) into the system, which is what you're promoting even with your "modernized" viewpoint.

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Archaic
...Pan argued that Marxism was never flawed. This looks like a pretty damn big flaw to me...

This comment distorts your arguement a little, Archaic. No, Pan didn't point to context but dismissing it out of hand because he in particular didn't is a mistake. Child labor was the norm in the 19th century.

Anyway Lucky....the fact that it was 19th Century Europe is no excuse.
How they originally intended it was certainly not technical educations, apprenticeships and internships, but as actual labour.

since when were apprenticeships and internships "not actual labor"? Anyway, this is my (and no doubt others') modernization, intended in case we need to toe the party line for whatever reason.

The key words are combination and with. It's not education of how to work in the factories, it's actually WORKING IN THE FACTORIES.

Right. an education instead of no education while doing what they would be doing otherwise- working. The notion of proletarian kids not working would be alien.

[Main_Brain]

As someone who read the original I can savely say that It was meant that Education would LATER lead to higher Production.
Which is.. right :=)

[Pandemoniak]

The fact is that the original is more worthy of trust than any translation. Especially seeing that the "industrial" aspect -- therefore involving factories -- is only mentionned in the english translation, and is not present in the others translations.

[Archaic]

WTF are you talking about Pan? You gave me the original version Pan, then told me in English what you say it said, using a translation by a web translation service as your base.

I take the AUTHORIZED TRANSLATION made and approved by the original authors as being the best way to express the original intent of their message in the language. That is superior to whatever translation you care to provide, like it or not, as a literal translation would obviously not have suited Marx and Engels, seeing as they APPROVED THIS TRANSLATION.

Anyway Lucky....the fact that it was 19th Century Europe is no excuse. Pan argued that Marxism was never flawed. This looks like a pretty damn big flaw to me. How they originally intended it was certainly not technical educations, apprenticeships and internships, but as actual labour. The key words are combination and with. It's not education of how to work in the factories, it's actually WORKING IN THE FACTORIES.

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Archaic
Sorry Pan, but the translation I gave you was the authorised English translation by Samuel Moore of 1888, with a preface by Frederick Engels, who co-wrote the Manifesto with Marx in the first place. You lose.

One major key here is 19th century Europe. Child labor at all was not an aberration, atrocity though it was. Child labor was an integral part of the industrial economy and any provisions at all for increased opportunities for that portion of the work force to develop were damn progressive in spirit. And if we are to toe the line here, I repeat, technical educations, apprenticeships and internships!!

[Pandemoniak]

Who am I going to trust? Your translation using a web translation service,

This is not a translation by a web translation service, this is no translation at all ! I wrote it to you in German.

or a translation overseen by the original authors?

Frankly, why not the original itself, by its original authors ?

The English translation I gave you is the AUTHORIZED translation, and therefore is the closest translation of their words to english with their original intent.

Closest yes, but since you care so much about being precise, take the original version of it. No wonder you think Marxism is flawed if all you know of it is a translation, flawed by itself.

Give it up Pan. Marxism supports forced child labour.

Come on, go get a nice dictionnary or a german speaking person, and educate yourself.

[Archaic]

Who am I going to trust? Your translation using a web translation service, or a translation overseen by the original authors? The English translation I gave you is the AUTHORIZED translation, and therefore is the closest translation of their words to english with their original intent. Give it up Pan. Marxism supports forced child labour.

[Pandemoniak]

Sorry but the german version I gave you is the one Marx and Engels wrote themself, in their orginal language. You lose, and I spotted a mistake of translation.

In german : industriell = industrial
while material = material

[Archaic]

Sorry Pan, but the translation I gave you was the authorised English translation by Samuel Moore of 1888, with a preface by Frederick Engels, who co-wrote the Manifesto with Marx in the first place. You lose.

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
ok i got it : Vereinigung der Erziehung mit der materiellen Produktion

Systran says : Combination of the education with material production

I think everyone will agree that it is mean for materialist education, not industrial labour.

Apprenticeships and technical education.

[Pandemoniak]

ok i got it : Vereinigung der Erziehung mit der materiellen Produktion

Systran says : Combination of the education with material production

I think everyone will agree that it is mean for materialist education, not industrial labour.

[Pandemoniak]

ok let me put it clear to you :

Spoiler:

Translation from Russian
"It must not happen again"

First, what the manifesto says in French, closer to its original language, is :

10.Education publique et gratuite de tous les enfants. Abolition du travail des enfants dans les fabriques tel qu'il est pratiqué aujourd'hui. Combinaison de l'éducation avec la production matérielle, etc.

and not
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Meaning : Free and public education for all children, unlike "free education for all children [that are] in public schools. There is nothing but public schools.

Second the combination of education with material -- material, not industrial -- production doesnt mean childrens do half time hard labour, half time studies, it means their education is oriented to a materialist education -- teach them the meaning of work, not as something you earn your life with, but as something you do on a material object A to have a material object B. Instead of spoiling childrens, making them work for benefits, we should teach them the real meaning of work, being the first "divertissement"(not entertainment, see Jean Giono's "Un roi sans divertisement" for further details, if interested) philosophically speaking.

[Archaic]

From the Communist Manifesto
"10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. "

Let me highlight that.
"10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc."

You're right. They're in the Creches. BEING FORCED INTO MANUAL LABOUR!

[Pandemoniak]

(No more of Pan's Child Labour!)

lmao, that was fallacious. Everyone knows children are at the Children Creches, when they're too young to come to the Rec Commons...