Recreation Commons - 007teenth Floor: The Isle of Doom

[GeoModder]

Hear hear.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Drogue
Nope - but the leader is God's representative on Earth, so why should they have to listen to others? If we're at all consistent with Miriam's teachings, we have a fundamentalist system - we all follow God's messenger on Earth, who tells us God's will.

Gimme one quote where it says Miriam is God's representative on Earth. You're the one not following the faction's ethos, but instead making things up.

Originally posted by Drogue
How does pacifism work when our faction has a 25% attack bonus? That bonus is due to the war-like nature of the Peacekeepers.
...
Which is why they have the science penalty.

Societies are not monolithical. Even if the faction's general attitude would be one of fanaticism and anti-science, that doesn't mean there can't be any pacifist or pro-science groups at all.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by binTravkin
- collective decision making

Right.

- elective system

Right.

- green party

Right.

- liberal/pacifist party

Pacifist party.

- lack of freedom in PKs

Actually, that is propaganda. Lal has been elected as Planetary Governor, but Believers are probing techs from them, leading to declaration of vendetta. Recently a truce has been agreed to. There is agitation for war against them under banner of "liberating" fellow believers who are "opressed" under a U.N. leadership.

- science not being percieved as something evil

Science percieved as a path that can produce something potentially evil if one's not careful enough.

- police/secret service

Eh? Inquisition is just a fun section.

- bureaucracy/corruption

I won't comment on those.

Things that not all may have noticed:
-A person, minister of war (Order of the Sword) agitating for a lightning strike against the Hive to the north.
-Believers beelining to Air Power, with help of probed techs.
-A probe team has been lost (Order of the Shadow "missionary")
-Lal the most powerful AI faction, somewhat agitated by Believer probing. Constantine accuses Lal of being the Antichrist, since Peacekeeper agenda is to preserve the original mission and unite other factions under mantle of UN. Real purpose is to gain support for a full scale attack on the AI.
-Polarization between two groups, those who want to play momentum wise, and those who wish to use support bonus and turn Believers to a builder (aided by probed technologies ). The result depends on results of other groups (like the green group)

Of course, I could whip out another "issue" showing other possible developments.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Drogue, 2 things:

1.Do you really think that PKs (and maybe Angels) are the only ones who can work in a team?
2.Do you really think that whether a faction is a murderer and/or oppressor does depend completely on it's profile? (well maybe except Yang)

No. However I do believe you cannot make actions that go against the ethos of a faction, while keeping the game consistent. I don't see the point in playing the Believers and then doing things that the Believers faction quotes/profile states are wrong.

Moreover, as I asked before, what is the *upside* of playing the believers? What does it make allow us to do that the PKs, or preferably our own distinct faction, cannot do?

Originally posted by binTravkin
And furthermore, what makes you think that a democracy between the players of the game requires the same strict democracy in the faction profile?

I never said it did. I said it shouldn't have faction quotes that are the antithesis. We should be consistent and play the faction somewhat in accordance with the factions expressed ideology.


I don't think you've quite got what I mean. Whatever faction we play, I want to play it in keeping with their expressed ideology - the quotes, the pros/cons, the faction ethos, etc. I also think it's imperitive that we play as a team, deciding on major issues by voting and having political parties, debates and discussions, and allowing for a whole breadth of opinions.

I'm just wondering what the point of playing a faction that doesn't fit particularly well, even if you can somehow explain why Miriam would play in that style. I'd love for someone to tell me the pros of it.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
Gimme one quote where it says Miriam is God's representative on Earth. You're the one not following the faction's ethos, but instead making things up.

I never said she was. I'm presuming, since Miriam talks of the will of God, that somehow God has conveyed that message to man.

Originally posted by Maniac
Societies are not monolithical. Even if the faction's general attitude would be one of fanaticism and anti-science, that doesn't mean there can't be any pacifist or pro-science groups at all.

But they can't gain power. If we have a pro-science group running the Believers, it's completely not in keeping with their faction ideology. Similarly if pacifists take control. Why play a faction that limits us in the actions we can take? If we're to be consistent, the Believers, whatever parties we have, act in an aggressive and anti-science way.

That's my point, why play a faction that limits the actions we can take while being consistent with their ideologies? Can someone stop attacking my belief that the Believer's are bad for the DG and explain why they're a good faction to choose? I'm open to arguments, but nobody's posted anything in their favour yet, except that they should be possible.

The PKs believe in democracy solely, and above all else, and thus whatever we vote in is in keeping with their ideology. That is why I think they make a great DG faction. Or we can create our own faction, and have it in keeping with what Apolyton is to us.

[binTravkin]

I don't see the point in playing the Believers and then doing things that the Believers faction quotes/profile states are wrong.

Erm, and those would be?
I can not imagine a single thing that the faction ideology existing in-game would deny to believers except maybe Transcendance.

If you're talking about all the books and stories which are made about Believers, than that's a different issue, yet I fail to see the relevancy.

Moreover, as I asked before, what is the *upside* of playing the believers? What does it make allow us to do that the PKs, or preferably our own distinct faction, cannot do?

- not being repetitive (PKs, then PKs and again PKs)
- being fun, I for one would enjoy all that preaching, it would make a great RP source for me and I guess for some other people here too
- maybe something more, but I don't have it in mind atm

I never said it did. I said it shouldn't have faction quotes that are the antithesis. We should be consistent and play the faction somewhat in accordance with the factions expressed ideology.

I don't think you've quite got what I mean. Whatever faction we play, I want to play it in keeping with their expressed ideology - the quotes, the pros/cons, the faction ethos, etc. I also think it's imperitive that we play as a team, deciding on major issues by voting and having political parties, debates and discussions, and allowing for a whole breadth of opinions.

I'm just wondering what the point of playing a faction that doesn't fit particularly well, even if you can somehow explain why Miriam would play in that style. I'd love for someone to tell me the pros of it.

At first I would like to hear particular quotes which are in conflict with Miriam picking say:
- Demo
- FM
- Wealth
SE
and
- being peaceful/builder

I would also like to hear any quotes which are in conflict in say usual Hive strategies.
The only one which comes to my mind is about punishment spheres as they're hardly ever used, but that's not even a conflict, just a minor inconsequence resulting in players actually being more rational than Yang himself.

And you repeat saying 'doesn't fit'.
There comes logical question - to what?
To your idea of how demogames should like or to being a source of active and fun RP (which is what I seek in demogames)?
I already showed how Miriam is not in conflict with usual strategies used on her, Illu showed how it is possible to unite collective decision making and elective system with piousness, so I wonder what exactly is the part which 'does not fit'..

Societies are not monolithical. Even if the faction's general attitude would be one of fanaticism and anti-science, that doesn't mean there can't be any pacifist or pro-science groups at all.

QFT
I would even admit that the factions general attitude may have nothing to do with official propaganda (which you seem to be seeing as the source of this fanaticism and anti-science).
It is a common modern day misunderstanding that the society we're living in, or in SMAC terms PK-Morganish society, is the only and ultimate model of how society should be.
In fact it IS the official propaganda which makes us believe so.
Many of us could be equally happy and satisfied with life in a world where people used God and The Scripture/Bible to forward their goals.
It does not change anything whether the instrument is U.N. Charter or Bible, they have been used for the same thing throughout the ages and nothing has changed in the way they are/were used, nor in the fruits they bear/bore.

Gimme one quote where it says Miriam is God's representative on Earth. You're the one not following the faction's ethos, but instead making things up.

Yes, you see, Method, problem is not within the faction itself as a collection of properties made by Firaxis, but in your minds' perception of those properties.
You apparently have extended the meaning of Believers to what are modern day believers and to what is understanding about how the religion and people closely related to it should be organised (Pope = God's representative on Earth).
This perception and association has nothing to do what Miriam really is and/or could be under certain circumstances.

[binTravkin]

But they can't gain power. If we have a pro-science group running the Believers, it's completely not in keeping with their faction ideology. Similarly if pacifists take control. Why play a faction that limits us in the actions we can take? If we're to be consistent, the Believers, whatever parties we have, act in an aggressive and anti-science way.

Wait.
Is your belief in democracy and humanitarianism really so blind?
There are numerous groups of people which can't gain power under PK government, because the only legitimate party is the democratical (okay liberal fits too), all parties expressing different beliefs in how government should be constructed (Police State, Fundamentalism) are banned. Likewise banned are those who think Power and Thought Control is the choice (right-wingists).

And where exactly stands written that they should be agressive and anti science?
What prohibits us from playing peacefully?

That's my point, why play a faction that limits the actions we can take while being consistent with their ideologies? Can someone stop attacking my belief that the Believer's are bad for the DG and explain why they're a good faction to choose? I'm open to arguments, but nobody's posted anything in their favour yet, except that they should be possible.

Because there are no limitations based upon ideologies, at least nothing that would prevent us playing a peaceful Demo-FM-Wealth builder Miriam.
Your idea about God's representative is your, similarly any other distinct enforcement of some SE or strategy.
Firaxis did not tell us to play Fundy-Planned-Power with in any way, at least I don't read that in quotes and stuff.

Hey, this is getting insulting, there are plenty of arguments, one of the best being Illuminatus's work, yet you dismiss them.
Maybe stop attacking my belief Believers are good SP faction?

The PKs believe in democracy solely, and above all else, and thus whatever we vote in is in keeping with their ideology. That is why I think they make a great DG faction. Or we can create our own faction, and have it in keeping with what Apolyton is to us.

The Believers believe in God solely, and above all else and thus whatever we vote in can be described as Will Of God, and thus whatever we vote is in keeping with their ideology. That's why I think they make a great SPDG faction.
What's the difference?

And no thanks, I don't want my own faction for rather obvious reasons.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
The Believers believe in God solely, and above all else and thus whatever we vote in can be described as Will Of God, and thus whatever we vote is in keeping with their ideology. That's why I think they make a great SPDG faction.

QFT!

[Micha]

Alcohol? Is it still served here?

You people discussing much. Many words. Endless stream of words. Arnie doesn´t like it. Arnie will make silence. Arnie likes silence!

/me (played by Arnold Schwarzenegger) does the pumpgun scene of T2, messing up the recCommons and many of its customers.

[Method]

Re: Recreation Commons - 007teenth Floor: This Glass Is Not Enough

Originally posted by Illuminatus
The end

Recreation Commons

Directed by: Ridley Scott







Screenplay by: Quentin Tarantino




Cast of Characters:


Jack Nicholson......................................... .....................GeoModder

William Shatner........................................... ....................binTravkin

Elijah Wood.............................................. ......................Ouro_827

Arnold Schwarzenegger.................................... .....................Micha

Chuck Norris............................................ ......................Illuminatus

Lucy Liu............................................... ..........................Snowflake

Tom Cruise............................................ .............................Method

Rowan Atkinson.......................................... ........................Drogue

Gary Oldman............................................ ...........................Maniac

Ben Affleck........................................... ............................Hercules

Alan Alda.............................................. ..............................Flubber

Clint Eastwood.......................................... ........................Modo44

Michael Caine............................................. ................ForesterSOF

Christian Bale.............................................. ..............Kataphraktoi

Anthony Hopkins........................................... .........................Kody

Jon Voight............................................ ........................FlameFlash

Nicolas Cage.............................................. ......................Darsnan

David Hasselhoff........................................ ...................Kassiopeia

Matt Damon............................................. .........................mart7x5

Brad Pitt.............................................. .............DeathByTheSword

Liam Neeson............................................ ...........Snoddasmannen

Colin Farrell........................................... ............................Googlie

Morgan Freeman........................................... ....................arginine

Harvey Keitel............................................ ......................laurentius

Chevy Chase............................................. ............................wuy3

Chris Rock.............................................. ..............................Jamski

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Micha
Alcohol? Is it still served here?

You people discussing much. Many words. Endless stream of words. Arnie doesn´t like it. Arnie will make silence. Arnie likes silence!

* Micha (played by Arnold Schwarzenegger) does the pumpgun scene of T2, messing up the recCommons and many of its customers.

Ah, excellent, my newest minion. I shall call him the Governor.

[Modo44]

I love the cast.

[Hercules]

Yeah,

I was happy with my casting.

[binTravkin]

For the visually impaired:

------------------------------------------------
Jack Nicholson		|	GeoModder
William Shatner		|	binTravkin
Elijah Wood		|	Ouro_827
Arnold Schwarzenegger	|	Micha
Chuck Norris		|	Illuminatus
Lucy Liu		|	Snowflake
Tom Cruise		|	Method
Rowan Atkinson		|	Drogue
Gary Oldman		|	Maniac
Ben Affleck		|	Hercules
Alan Alda		|	Flubber
Clint Eastwood		|	Modo44
Michael Caine		|	ForesterSOF
Christian Bale		|	Kataphraktoi
Anthony Hopkins		|	Kody
Jon Voight		|	FlameFlash
Nicolas Cage		|	Darsnan
David Hasselhoff	|	Kassiopeia
Matt Damon		|	mart7x5
Brad Pitt		|	DeathByTheSword
Liam Neeson		|	Snoddasmannen
Colin Farrell		|	Googlie
Morgan Freeman		|	arginine
Harvey Keitel		|	laurentius
Chevy Chase		|	wuy3
Chris Rock		|	Jamski
------------------------------------------------

[GeoModder]

/me is proud of his theatratical performance in the last Commons.