Can a case be made for a Ukrainian civ for a Europe map?

[ranskaldan]

Well I think Azazel is also referring to what happened after, like the Romans, Visigoths, Moors, etc.

[Az]

and the canaanites, too. (carthaginian phoenicians).

basques have many linguistical and phenotipical similarities with many caucasian populations, which are considered to be proto-european. ( the word caucasian is because of 'caucasus' )

spanish doesn't exist? but english does? italian does? french does? arab does? then, nothing exists.

[ranskaldan]

Well, here's a site that may interest some:

http://www.geocities.com/racial_myths/genetic_variation.html

[randomhero]

The reason why nobody can win this argument is beacuse we are simply EUROPEANS. Maybe it is time to look beyond your national borders and embrace greater entity. It is time to become civilised or otherwise Africa and Middle East will ketchup.

Over the many centuries europe seen so many wars, border changes, empires, religions and population movements that it is often hard to distinguish who is who. United Europe is the next logical step and only hope for future peace.

[Beren]

Originally posted by randomhero
The reason why nobody can win this argument is beacuse we are simply EUROPEANS. Maybe it is time to look beyond your national borders and embrace greater entity. It is time to become civilised or otherwise Africa and Middle East will ketchup.

Over the many centuries europe seen so many wars, border changes, empires, religions and population movements that it is often hard to distinguish who is who. United Europe is the next logical step and only hope for future peace.

There is no clear distinction between Europeans and for instance, the peoples of the Middle East. Let's face it. There are no pure races or even ethnicities. So following the logic of the Random hero a unified world is the next most logical step.

P.S.: Nationalism is bull **** anyway

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Azazel
spanish doesn't exist? but english does? italian does? french does? arab does? then, nothing exists.

Spanish or Spaniards? Spanish doesn't exist as a language or culture like doesn't exist British or American, another thing is the common use of the word for reffering as the most spoken language or "lingua franca" of the territories between each community.

For example, in USA there are a lot of spansih speakers, but this language is thousands of light years to be a linga franca except in the reduced "ghettos" (and, if a language is used to create THIS marginal areas, what a shame!).

Spaniards, in the other hand, is more real, is just call "the ones that lived a long time basically in the Iberian Peninsulae and sorrounding islands". In this therms, the original balearaican were spaniards too!!

Humans are beings that move, not trees, so put a human name to a land is quite difficult, and more difficult is say that a state is someting like a nation with a special language. I can't remember a state that has a coorect border according to language or similar. Look Ireland, Germany, France, China, Mongolia, Russia, etc...

Is very difficult to establish correct borders!!!

[Az]

Spaniards. That's what I meant.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Azazel

most of the population was slavic, but there were many scandinavian immigrants as well. It doesn't contradict.


The first french kings were germanic ( I am not sure of the rest ), and the a couple of germanic tribes settled in Gaul, but most of the population is speaking french, which is a latin language. Still they call themselves 'the french', that means that the franks were their ancestors. It REALLY doesn't contradict serb!

Exactly- if the first french kings were Germans, but it doesn't make French people Germans, why if first Russian Tzar was Scandinavian it makes Russians a mix of Scandinavians and Slavs?
In my understanding this statement would be true if it was mix of more or less equal proportions, lets say 60/40 or 70/30. In that case there will be traces and the first such trace is language.

Sure Vikings influenced Rus (as many other countries in Europe), sure there were many of them (as in many other European countries), sure first Russian king was Viking and his children ruled about 700 years, but I don't understand why many people here absolutely sure that Vikings created Russian state? Was their influence so critical? Are they criticaly inluenced language of Kiev Rus? No. Are they criticaly inflenced the way of life in Kiev Rus, made it more Scandinavian? I doubt. Then why, because first Russian tzar was Viking?

I think we should view this from perspective- "who was assimilated and by whom".
I guess the fact that today I speak on Slavic language, not on Scandinavian clearly answers this question.

[Az]

Serb: the french are considered of the same national group as the germans, though different language groups.

[Serb]

Good for them.
You can't say the same about Russians and Vikings....

hmm...or YOU can?

[Az]

hey, you can consider yourself a martian, I don't care.

[Serb]

Fine

[Az]

Case Closed....

[XarXo]

Nationalism is a bullsh*t when is used as an excuse for things that are unjustificable like the holocaust.

Nationalism, as I see, is the love for the special order that has the people in a territory that evolved as a common reaction of this people.

Explained: You can be black, white or green, speak language A, B or C, and like sport team 1, 2 or 3. Also you can have multinationality, attack the nation idea or simply ignore it. The important thing is that you RECOGNIZE its existance (by ignoring it, too), and you see that it AFFECTS you (good or bad). In this therms, you are a part of an identity.

Nation borns when the identity create some symbols that relates to it, but the TRUE nationalism is based in the creation of typical reactions of some people (another thing is what symbol syou preffer) .

In my case, I'm something called catalan-valencian-balear-abndorran and a lot of more names, with som e different flags and with two or three languages. The conscient relation is this: We love money (very sad). We discuss about it, how to have more, how to pay less. And for it we are capable to simulate confrontations and a lot of wars (sad). But at the end, we can sit in a table and speak about it, and this because we have something that relates us, we don't know what is the true thing, but this is the concept of "nationality". I can sit with a not-catalan (or not-whatever that it is) person and be my best friend, but this simply doesn't exist. Oh! I forget! Is something felt individually, not mutually! This is the origin of discussions, people doesn't understand why each other feel different.

Is a very tiny and invisible thing, like "hope", "love" or "hungry" just this. But, in the other hand, is very powerful, this is why politics use it like a doll destroying it in some cases causing a social division.

The problem is not the nationalism, the problem is with the politics. AS The problem is not the death, the problem is with the killers.

If we are humans, WE MUST BE enough intelligent to accept our responsability in the creation of monsters and other problems. Hitler won democratically. Soviets won in old-style "sponsoring". If we aren't enough INTELLIGENT to understand the reaction of use our FREEDOM in a moment, we should do NOTHING.

But this is just my opinion!

[Az]

Cool post, and I am sure we all can agree. Thing is that this doesn't really relate to our thread. I think