Can a case be made for a Ukrainian civ for a Europe map?

[Az]

Rome was once the capital of Roman Empire. Does it mean we can't create an Italian civ?

yes it does. try placing them both on an Earth map.

[Serb]

Originally posted by XarXo
Serb, BTW, are you ukranian?

My grandMa is Ukranian, my grand grandfather was Byelorussian, if I'll start to dig a bit deeper I'll find many interesting about heritage, I guess. So, no. I'm typical Russian. It's absolutely typical for Russians to have diverse heritage.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson


Indians and Americans share their history as well...

1) Their common history starts where Indian civ ends.
2) They belong to different nationalities and even race.
3) They belong to different cultures.

-they used to be Greek catholics until You forced them back to orthodox faith
-most of them subdued to the Kievian patriarchate,
which is not respected by Moscow, and due to its influence, by other patriarchates as well,
not to Moscow patriarchate

Blah...blah...blah....
What can I say?....crap, total crap.
I don't understand a thing. What are you trying to say, that Ukranians were Catholics from the beggining?

I believe You. You don't give other religions no chance after all...

Yeah, sure. And Russian Federation is religious, fanatical dictatorship, right?

Greeks, Georgians - they are orthodox as well. Does it mean they are the same as You?

You are just dodge around my words Heresson.
It means what it means- that we share the same religion- the same values, which makes us closer to each other then for example to Poles. However, I was saying about absolutely different. I've said that Russian Orthodox Church obtained it's status of "state's religion" in KIEV in times of Kiev Rus. For thousand years Russian Orthodox Church was the BASE of RUSSIAN culture, of Russian civ. If the case will be made for Ukranian civ as separate civ, with the capital in Kiev, then how about the fact that Russian Orthodoxy, which is the basement of Russian civ is started in the same city of Kiev which was the capital of our COMMON state- Kiev Rus? How could you take away Kiev Rus from RUSSIAN history? That's was my question.

Not Russian, but Ruthenian.

Russkaya, Heresson, R U S S K A Y A.

At this time all Slavs, from £aba/Elbe to Dniepr were one nation, one civilisation... It doesn't prove anything.

It proves that this nation our COMMON root, not root of Ukranians only. And suggestion like- "let's take Kiev Rus, call it Ukraine and put it in civilization scenarios" I found silly.

Soon Ukrainians missed Poles and united with them again... Russia never held entire Ukraine in modern shape; only SU did.

What a bullsh!t. Do you really beleive in your own claims? Missed Poles... What a bullsh!t.

This way You could claim that all nations that populated Russia in any time are inseparatable.
Again, you don't prove anything.

Again? Read carefuly next time. We were talking about ACHEIVMENTS. You know, things like first spaceman, like victory in WW2, etc. How could you separate Ukranian role in such things from role of any other people that populated Russia. It was acheivments of people of entire country.

You mean Slavs' state I guess.
First of all, it was founded by Vikings...

It wasn't.

Anyway, Slavs are (again and again i repeat that until You'll remember about that);
-Russians
-Ukrainians
-Poles
-Byelorussians
-Czechs
-Serbs
-Bulgarians
-Slovakians
-Croatians
-Bosnians
-Macedonians
-Slovenians
-Luzyczans
NOT, as some of You, Russians, tend to think,
only You yourselves, Ukrainians and Byelorussians.

Well, thanks for the lecture Sherlok, but I think you should buy new glasses for yourself. I was talking about Kiev Rus, not about Slavs in general.

And again I remind You that Ukraine shared most of its history with Poland, as well as Byelorus.

And again I'm saying that this is T O T A L BULLSH!T.

Ukraine, and especially Byelorus, have better ties when it comes to literature for example with poland than with Russia.

Then why the hell they called BYELORUSSIANS, which means as you perhaps know WHITE ( Byelo) RUSSIANS? Why not ByeloPoles?

[Serb]

Originally posted by XarXo
Well, at the end Russia, Ukraine and the other will be in UE so... Why not a simply "Europeans" civ

Heresson have different plans. He gonna conquer and return everything to its rightfull owner- Poland of course.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Serb

1) Their common history starts where Indian civ ends.
2) They belong to different nationalities and even race.
3) They belong to different cultures

It was ad absurdum

Blah...blah...blah....
What can I say?....crap, total crap.
I don't understand a thing. What are you trying to say, that Ukranians were Catholics from the beggining?

Nope. Unlike You, I have basic knowledge of history
Just that the evolution of their culture brought them to greek-catholic church, until Romanows and Stalin forced them back to orthodoxy.

Yeah, sure. And Russian Federation is religious, fanatical dictatorship, right?

Nope. KGB officers aren't very religious.
But they do support actions by orthodox fanatics that would be impossible in any docent state

You are just dodge around my words Heresson.
It means what it means- that we share the same religion- the same values, which makes us closer to each other then for example to Poles. However, I was saying about absolutely different. I've said that Russian Orthodox Church obtained it's status of "state's religion" in KIEV in times of Kiev Rus. For thousand years Russian Orthodox Church

RUTHENIAN

Ruski, nie Rosyjski

was the BASE of RUSSIAN culture, of Russian civ. If the case will be made for Ukranian civ as separate civ, with the capital in Kiev, then how about the fact that Russian Orthodoxy, which is the basement of Russian civ is started in the same city of Kiev which was the capital of our COMMON state- Kiev Rus? How could you take away Kiev Rus from RUSSIAN history? That's was my question.

i don't. But that You have the same root doesn't mean anything. That's what I say.

Russkaya, Heresson, R U S S K A Y A.

There's distinction, also in English, to what is referred to all three eastern-Slavic cultures (Byelorussians, Ukrainians
and Russians), which is Ruthenian, and what is referred to Russia only - Russian.

It proves that this nation our COMMON root, not root of Ukranians only. And suggestion like- "let's take Kiev Rus, call it Ukraine and put it in civilization scenarios" I found silly.

Of course it isn't appropriate, but even less appropriate is to call it Russia or to give Kiev as a Russian city.
The territory that later transformed into Russia (notabene
the core of it, Radymicze and Wiatycze, with Moscow itself has roots in Poland but unfortunatelly got ruthenised)
were not at all important in the times of Kiev Ruthenia.

What a bullsh!t. Do you really beleive in your own claims? Missed Poles... What a bullsh!t.

Does a name of hetman Wyhowski and later Doroszenko,
and the name of Hadziacz village when later union of Poland and Ukraine was signed tell You something?

Again? Read carefuly next time. We were talking about ACHEIVMENTS. You know, things like first spaceman, like victory in WW2, etc. How could you separate Ukranian role in such things from role of any other people that populated Russia. It was acheivments of people of entire country.

It's nice that You say that it weren't only Russian achievements. But common achievements don't make You a common culture yet; I repeat; this way, You could claim that You are a common culture with Lithuania for example...
Anyway, is burning Sicz and destroying Cossacks' autonomy, or is the Great Hunger in Ukraine a common
achievement? Putin was welcomed in Ukraine with manifestants demanding recompensations from Russia for the Great Hunger. I think it's dumb, but...

It wasn't.

...

Well, thanks for the lecture Sherlok, but I think you should buy new glasses for yourself. I was talking about Kiev Rus, not about Slavs in general.

You didn't precise that. You should have written Ruthenians better.

And again I'm saying that this is T O T A L BULLSH!T.

Really? From the end of XIV century to the end of XVIII century, for 400 years, most of Ukraine was uder Polish rule, and later we shared Russian occupation.

Then why the hell they called BYELORUSSIANS, which means as you perhaps know WHITE ( Byelo) RUSSIANS? Why not ByeloPoles?

This name, "Byelorussians" oslt, is English one,
and is taken from Russian language probably (...).
In Polish, their name is Bia?orusini - White Ruthenians,
which come out of geographical name of White Ruthenia.
Again I remind You that in XIX century, even Russian specialists at first classified Byelorussian as "Polish dialect" - the same as Polish ones. up to today, Byelorussian language is, despite Russianisational tendencies, the most similar language of all to Polish.

Heresson have different plans. He gonna conquer and return everything to its rightfull owner- Poland of course.

Funny that You started the topic, XarXo.
Poland claimed the right (and is probably given it) of forming the eastern (not when it comes to Russia probably, though) politics of EU, and just issued its proposition of it to the European Comission proposing the status of as(s?)ociated states with EU to Moldavia and Ukraine, and claiming Byelorus, and the states of Caucasus and Central Asia as possible future EU members.

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Heresson
Funny that You started the topic, XarXo.

BTW: My mother is american, my father portuguese ==> I feel from Açores Islands because is between these countries? The nationalism sense doesn't have any relation to fathers and mothers, is personal and individual, if you feel russian, go to moscow!

Name: Ukrania
Leaders: ???
Capitol: Ky'yv
Characteristics: Militar, ??Expansionist??.
Unique unit: ??Chernobyl Souvenir??

MORE INFO!!! PLEASE!!!

[Az]

Just that the evolution of their culture brought them to greek-catholic church, until Romanows and Stalin forced them back to orthodoxy.

yes, the evolution of their culture ( being conquered by poles and lithuanians ) brought tehm to the catholic church.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Azazel

yes, the evolution of their culture ( being conquered by poles and lithuanians ) brought tehm to the catholic church.

They weren't forced to catholicism after being conquered, even as simple as that when Lithuanians subdued them, they were pagans.
The union of Brze?? was conducted at the end of XVI century, peacefully; only three orthodox bishops didn't comply and they weren't persecuted for that, they were replaced by pro-unionists only after their death.
Forcing Greek-catholics back to orthodoxy was a very different case.

yes it does. try placing them both on an Earth map.

First of all, You don't have to place them both on the map.
Secundly, the starting point for Roman civilisation can be Constantinople.

[Az]

right, the most suitable place for a roman civilization would be ROME god forbid.

[Heresson]

During the most of Roman history, the capital of it was in Constantinople.

[XarXo]

Rome is really different of Byzance. Note that constantinople emerged as a great capitol by the greek (and in a minor amount, egypt, babylon and the important trade point) control of the area.

Just look the pictures and diagrams of byzance, are more near of India or Babylonia than Greece itself! (statues and architectural styles not, just is a point to show the easternish vision of Byzance).

So, Byzance is a follower of Rome, just like some modern countries like Iran, Iraq, Libia, Mexico, India, etc... These countries mixed a lot their dominant people so at the end the "official" identity of each other changed. Iran or Iraq are very different from Persia or Babylon just for the arabization. Mexico for spanishation (well, better say "kill-aztec -ulturization") and others.

Before Rome some small kingdoms stayed here, now the romanization process and the decadence of the culture created new identities that have a very short list of similarities with the old ones. Only China, Thailand/Siam or Egypt continue with them. Japan for example destroyed "Ainuland" in the invasion. Only remain some ainu in northern Yeso / Hokkaido.

(Again I gone to the branches and forgoted the tree )

BRIEFLY: If Ukraine is creating a solid identity after the "russization" based on a truly past, YES, "A case can be made for Ukranian civ" . Note that for create and identity the people should have the "nationalist" sense.

[Heresson]

Byzantium IS Rome, just a little bit later. French culture isn't the same as it was 1000 years ago, is it?

[XarXo]

ISN'T Rome, the cultural basis, the religion start,... All different except the language, and greek was predominant on Byzantim... For me is really different one from another.

[Underseer]

First of all, I'm inclined (only inclined, mind you) to disagree with the assertion that Russians and Ukranians are all that different culturally. Take that with a grain of salt as I've only known a handful of Russians and Ukranians in my life, and I'm not all that familiar with the history of neither people.

I'm basing my claim on (A) the little bit I've gleaned from the people I've known and (B) observations of other "culture pairs" in the old world:

• The Norwegians and Swedes spend a lot of time pointing over the border and howling about how different they are.
• The Japanese and the Koreans do the same thing.
• Hutus and Tutsis.
• Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants.
• Serbs and Croats.
• Almost any pair of bordering Mediterranean cultures you care to name.
• Any place Shiites and Sunnis live together in large numbers.

The truth is, in all the above examples there may be huge differences in history (particularly in matters of aggression), but the difference in culture is nowhere near as big as the participants seem to think.

Just an observation.

As for whether or not Ukraine should be a Civ… Why the heck not? Why bother asking whether Ukraine is "significant enough" or not? As long as the result is fun to play, toss in East Timor for all I care. Asking the significance question sounds so… patronizing (to me at least).

If I may continue rattling the cage of the "significance" people, I seriously think Polynesia and the Inca should be included. My vote for Polynesian UU would be an ocean-going galley with a movement penalty.

[Az]

Byzantium IS Rome, just a little bit later. French culture isn't the same as it was 1000 years ago, is it?

neither is chinese, but we still use them as a single civilization.