Can a case be made for a Ukrainian civ for a Europe map?

[Serb]

Yeah sure, but I don't see connection between this post and original thread too.

[Az]

in short:


just like my own posts.

[XarXo]

Ummm, the reason of this post is show that the difference between Ukranians and Russians is the nationalism sense of each others, so "a case can be made fo a Ukranian"

(briefly: YES )

[Az]

a case can be made. A case can be made to call the vast majority of the people that live on the north african coast 'arabs'. They mostly have nothing to do with the arab peninsula, but their ancestors' conquerors certainly do.

[Serb]

Originally posted by XarXo
Ummm, the reason of this post is show that the difference between Ukranians and Russians is the nationalism sense of each others, so "a case can be made fo a Ukranian"

I didn't saw a single Ukranian argueing about differences between Russians and Ukranians in this thread (well, except Serb, of course, who is on 1/8 is Ukranian himself)

so "a case can be made fo a Ukranian"
(briefly: YES )

The game calls "C I V I L I Z A T I O N". Can you prove that Ukranian and Russian civilizations are different things?
I doubt.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Serb

I didn't saw a single Ukranian argueing about differences between Russians and Ukranians in this thread (well, except Serb, of course, who is on 1/8 is Ukranian himself)


The game calls "C I V I L I Z A T I O N". Can you prove that Ukranian and Russian civilizations are different things?
I doubt.

Of course they are different. What do You have in common? You have similar language and partially the same religion. You could argue the same that Poles
and Slovakians are the same civilization.

[XarXo]

This is the idea: A civ doesn't need an own state to exist, is a national sense at the end. Look, catalans are in spain (the major part), but we don't feel spanish in a big %, and in a clearly majority we preffer be catalans (or whatever the name that we should have) than spanish. This is people, no borders or symbols.

If ukranians have this feeling and have done big things using it, they should be able to have his small corner on civ, that's all.

[Az]

oh, catalan nationalism, how cute.

"damn castillianos with their rotten king, long live the revolution!"

Btw, in a scenario, I think it's fine to have ukraine as a "civ". becuase in scenarios civilizations mark states, nations.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson


Of course they are different. What do You have in common?

Almost everything, and first of all common HISTORY.

You have similar language and partially the same religion.

Partitialy the same religion, my ass
Like it or not Heresson, we- Russians and Ukranians were Orthodox, are Orthodox and will be Orthodox forever. You seems to do not understand where R U S S I A N Orthodoxy started. It started in K I E V, in 988, when Vladimir converted citezens of Kiev- the capital of Slavic state to Christianity by force. You seems to do not understand that we- Ukranians and Russians (there were no such determination in those times of course) were one nation, one culture and one civilization. And even consider that we were separated from each other untill in 1654 when we were united again, it doesn't make us different civilizations. As well as last 11 years of Ukranian independence don't make it.

You could argue the same that Poles
and Slovakians are the same civilization.

No, I wouldn't . You guys are trully unique dudes.
Argueing about differences between Russian and Ukranian civilizations, it's not even a debate about two apples. It's debate about differences betwen two halfs of the same apple- one is a bit bigger, perhaps (they can't be of the same size), second is a bit more red...So what? It's two halfs of the same apple anyway.

[Serb]

Originally posted by XarXo
If ukranians have this feeling and have done big things using it, they should be able to have his small corner on civ, that's all.

If... if... if...perhaps Ukranians should decide belong they to different (from Russian) civilization or not?
And which big things they done using this feeling? Last 350 years we lived in one state with them. How could you separate Russian/Ukranians/all other people's that populated Russia acheivments from each other? I really wish to know.

And once again, if one will make a civ with capital- Kiev and call it Ukraine, it will be a mistake, because it wasn't a capital of Ukraine. It was capital of Slav's state- Kiev Rus- the state of SLAVS (Russians, Ukranians, Beylorussians), not Ukranians. How could you torn away Kiev Rus from Russian history is beyond me.

[Az]

Actually, comparing the maps of today, and thousand years ago is stupid. there were no nations 1000 years ago. there were feudal kingdoms and principalities.

[XarXo]

Serb, BTW, are you ukranian?

[XarXo]

Well, at the end Russia, Ukraine and the other will be in UE so... Why not a simply "Europeans" civ

[Az]

he's russian, XarXo. but he has ukrainian relatives.

So do I, btw.

[Heresson]

Almost everything, and first of all common HISTORY.

Indians and Americans share their history as well...

Partitialy the same religion, my ass

-they used to be Greek catholics until You forced them back to orthodox faith
-most of them subdued to the Kievian patriarchate,
which is not respected by Moscow, and due to its influence, by other patriarchates as well,
not to Moscow patriarchate

Like it or not Heresson, we- Russians and Ukranians were Orthodox, are Orthodox and will be Orthodox forever.

I believe You. You don't give other religions no chance after all...

Greeks, Georgians - they are orthodox as well. Does it mean they are the same as You?

You seems to do not understand where R U S S I A N Orthodoxy started.

Not Russian, but Ruthenian.

It started in K I E V, in 988, when Vladimir converted citezens of Kiev- the capital of Slavic state to Christianity by force. You seems to do not understand that we- Ukranians and Russians (there were no such determination in those times of course) were one nation, one culture and one civilization.

At this time all Slavs, from £aba/Elbe to Dniepr were one nation, one civilisation... It doesn't prove anything.

And even consider that we were separated from each other untill in 1654 when we were united again,

Soon Ukrainians missed Poles and united with them again... Russia never held entire Ukraine in modern shape; only SU did.
Most of Ukraine Russia got only after partages of Poland, at the end of XVIII century.
Not much more than 200 years ago.

And which big things they done using this feeling? Last 350 years we lived in one state with them. How could you separate Russian/Ukranians/all other people's that populated Russia acheivments from each other? I really wish to know.

This way You could claim that all nations that populated Russia in any time are inseparatable.
Again, you don't prove anything.

And once again, if one will make a civ with capital- Kiev and call it Ukraine, it will be a mistake, because it wasn't a capital of Ukraine. It was capital of Slav's state- Kiev Rus

You mean Slavs' state I guess.
First of all, it was founded by Vikings...

- the state of SLAVS (Russians, Ukranians, Beylorussians), not Ukranians. How could you torn away Kiev Rus from Russian history is beyond me.

Rome was once the capital of Roman Empire. Does it mean we can't create an Italian civ?

Anyway, Slavs are (again and again i repeat that until You'll remember about that);
-Russians
-Ukrainians
-Poles
-Byelorussians
-Czechs
-Serbs
-Bulgarians
-Slovakians
-Croatians
-Bosnians
-Macedonians
-Slovenians
-Luzyczans
NOT, as some of You, Russians, tend to think,
only You yourselves, Ukrainians and Byelorussians.

And again I remind You that Ukraine shared most of its history with Poland, as well as Byelorus. Ukraine, and
especially Byelorus, have better ties when it comes to literature for example with poland than with Russia.