Can a case be made for a Ukrainian civ for a Europe map?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Serb

It will never die.

Eltsin is criminal who destroyed the country where I was born. He will burn in hell for what he done with Russia.

You can say a lot bad about Him... Bu tI'm sure history will judge Him well...
For example for participating in disuniting USSR.
That gave Ukraine indpendance and a chance to fight for its own nation in Civ4, while 15 years ago people referred to it as "Southern Russia"


Me myself, as I mentioned, don't see a reason why not to have a Ruthenian civ. Just Serb supports such option in a bad way.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson







You can say a lot bad about Him... Bu tI'm sure history will judge Him well...
For example for participating in disuniting USSR.
That gave Ukraine indpendance and a chance to fight for its own nation in Civ4,

He will burn in hell for this.

while 15 years ago people referred to it as "Southern Russia"

Oh boy.
Do you know what word Ukraine means?
"Ukraina" means "near border", "near the edge", "frontier land". Even its name shows that Ukraine and Russia is actually a ONE thing.

Me myself, as I mentioned, don't see a reason why not to have a Ruthenian civ. Just Serb supports such option in a bad way.

Kiev's Rus is one thing, Ukranian civ is another.
If introduce Kiev's Rus and just call it Ukraine it will be pure BS.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Serb

He will burn in hell for this.

No, He'll go straight to Heaven for this.

Oh boy.
Do you know what word Ukraine means?
"Ukraina" means "near border", "near the edge", "frontier land". Even its name shows that Ukraine and Russia is actually a ONE thing.

It means the same in Polish Serb...
And it was because Ukraine was the frontier land of POLAND, not Russia.

Kiev's Rus is one thing, Ukranian civ is another.
If introduce Kiev's Rus and just call it Ukraine it will be pure BS.

You'll be suprised, but I'm not arguing with You in that matter
Not that I agree when it comes to implications of this.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson


No, He'll go straight to Heaven for this.

He was among top Soviet commies, a member of politburo. Commies do not go to Heaven, they go directly to hell, as you know.

It means the same in Polish Serb...
And it was because Ukraine was the frontier land of POLAND, not Russia.

BS. Ukraine and Russia was one thing at the beggining, then mongols separated us and you stole parts of Ukraine for a while. Later Ukraine and Russia became one thing again. 13 years ago they were separated again.

You'll be suprised, but I'm not arguing with You in that matter

It's a miracle..

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Serb

He was among top Soviet commies, a member of politburo. Commies do not go to Heaven, they go directly to hell, as you know.

I've seen a film about Him, and He was praying.
They should canonise Him. He can be the patron of recovering alcoholics or something....
hmmm

BS. Ukraine and Russia was one thing at the beggining, then mongols separated us and you stole parts of Ukraine for a while. Later Ukraine and Russia became one thing again. 13 years ago they were separated again.

It was not unification. Ukrainians tried to stay independant. When Cossacks realised they can't get respect from dumb Poles, they turned to Russia - after over a half century of revolts and attempts of getting a proper place in the state without it.
Then, Russian came, and Ukrainians lost their freedom again - to Russians, who were more effective on supressing them.
Greek-catholic (Ukrainian) church was of course destroyed where Russians could destroy it, just like Sicz was.
Eventually, instead of supporting Ukrainians, Russia got to the point with Poland it'd be the best to divide it. And so they did.
Later on, once Russians even helped Poland to supress an Ukrainian revolt. It deserved it for Human massacre, though.
As Russians took another part of Ukraine from Poland, again greek-catholic church was brutally persecuted.
And Russians treated Ukrainians as part of Russian nation, just inferior one. Ukrainian language was treaten as a Russian dialect and was persecuted.
Not that Russians weren't doing the same when it comes to others.
After ww1, Ukrainians attempted to get independant, but were forced by Red Russians to become one more puppet republic of USSR.
Moscow's brilliant strategy caused a great famine on Ukraine, in which millions of people have died.
As Ukraine got independant after the fall of USSR,
Russians never treated its independance seriously.
And if so, they treated it with anger, which can be seen in entire Sevastopol case, in demandements of returning Crimea to Russia...



It's a miracle.. [/QUOTE]

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson


I've seen a film about Him, and He was praying.
They should canonise Him. He can be the patron of recovering alcoholics or something....

He is a well-known liar and well-known dumb alcoholic. You can canonise him. We prefer to see him cannonassed.

It was not unification. Ukrainians tried to stay independant. When Cossacks realised they can't get respect from dumb Poles, they turned to Russia - after over a half century of revolts and attempts of getting a proper place in the state without it.
Then, Russian came, and Ukrainians lost their freedom again - to Russians, who were more effective on supressing them.
Greek-catholic (Ukrainian) church was of course destroyed where Russians could destroy it, just like Sicz was.
Eventually, instead of supporting Ukrainians, Russia got to the point with Poland it'd be the best to divide it. And so they did.
Later on, once Russians even helped Poland to supress an Ukrainian revolt. It deserved it for Human massacre, though.
As Russians took another part of Ukraine from Poland, again greek-catholic church was brutally persecuted.
And Russians treated Ukrainians as part of Russian nation, just inferior one. Ukrainian language was treaten as a Russian dialect and was persecuted.
Not that Russians weren't doing the same when it comes to others.
After ww1, Ukrainians attempted to get independant, but were forced by Red Russians to become one more puppet republic of USSR.
Moscow's brilliant strategy caused a great famine on Ukraine, in which millions of people have died.
As Ukraine got independant after the fall of USSR,
Russians never treated its independance seriously.

Blah...blah...blah...
It was Poland who opressed Ukraine, thier language, religion and culture, not Russia.

And if so, they treated it with anger, which can be seen in entire Sevastopol case, in demandements of returning Crimea to Russia...

And why the hell it should be Ukranian to begin with? It was conqured by Russians, not Ukranians. And it is populated by Russians now. Ukranians didn't do a thing to gain this territory. It was dumbass Khrushev who made this gift to Ukranian SSR. But they will never return it anyway, so relax.

[Heresson]

Blah...blah...blah...
It was Poland who opressed Ukraine, thier language, religion and culture, not Russia.

Not at all.
Poland was quite moderate in promote greek catholicism instead of orthodox church in I republic; the bishops who didn't sign the union
kept their status up to their deaths.
You may say that Poles were oppressing poor Ukrainian peasants, but it's not quite that. That "Poles" opressing them were just polonised Ukrainians.
II republic - yup, we did opress them a bit, for which they massacred us during ww2.
But it's just 20 years.
And You had plenty of time and no scruples.

And why the hell it should be Ukranian to begin with? It was conqured by Russians, not Ukranians.

I thought You were UNITY at this time


Stop contradicting yourself

[Serb]

Russian soldiers died for Crimea, not Ukranian. Russians settled there, not Ukranians. It was Russian land untill Khrushev presented it to Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic.

[Popovic]

Perhaps you went to university, but I guess that you weren't doing cultural studies there, right ?
You didn't get a critical eye. Or maybe only a very selective critical eye.

Eltsin is criminal who destroyed the country where I was born. He will burn in hell for what he done with Russia.

And I guess Putin is the holy saviour of Mother Russia.

It was way better than modern Russian Federation

Oh. And life was way better under Stalin too I suppose ? Though I agree that for the poor the everyday life must not have improved that much between 1990 and 2000, to say the least.
But I guess "we were bigger on the map" is a key point of your being nostalgic. Those inferior muslim peoples of Asia certainly didn't deserve independance, right ?

Do you know what word Ukraine means?

Irrelevant
The problem is that it dates back to an era when the Russian state was not quite born yet. So whatever the meaning of the word, it can't mean Russian borders obviously. And even if you say Rus=Russia, well wasn't Kiev the center at the time ?
You should also have noticed that there are quite a few regions in Europe that have a similar meaning... All the "-mark" lands for example...

Kiev's Rus is one thing, Ukranian civ is another.

Right; Rus is not Russia, but it's not Ukraine either.

It was Poland who opressed Ukraine, thier language, religion and culture, not Russia.

Hmm Poland might have done some kind of oppression but it was nowhere close to attempted genocide. But you can still claim that there was no genocide in Ukraine just as you can say that not a single jew/rrom died in german hands. But as the Germans are an evil people (they're not Slavic) so you have no reason for denying that genocide. BTW, knowing you're a hardline backward-looking Russian, I'd better not ask for your opinion on the Jews or the Rroms.

And why the hell it should be Ukranian to begin with? It was conqured by Russians, not Ukranians. And it is populated by Russians now. Ukranians didn't do a thing to gain this territory. It was dumbass Khrushev who made this gift to Ukranian SSR. But they will never return it anyway, so relax.

I guess you must have a lot of respect for the people that used to live in the Crimea (before your heroes deported them); and you sure think that it must be returned to them, since "we-were-there-first" is your average argument...

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Serb
Russian soldiers died for Crimea, not Ukranian.

Ukraine (half of) was under Russian control, so probably Ukrainians soldiers fought there too...

[Serb]

Your probably doesn't meant they were. Name a single Ukranian unit who fought vs. Tatars there.

[Heresson]

Cossacks?

And by the way of them, Mazepa tried to get independant from Russians too

[Serb]

They betrayed Russians and joined Swedes at Poltava. Never heard cossaks fought in Crimea. Try again.

[Heresson]

I doubt Russians wouldn't use good soldiers of an adjactent area to fight against Crimea.
You have no proof they did not.

[Odin]

Serb, under your reasoning Germany and Austria are a single country. Admit it, you are a nationalist idiot who grew up being spoon fed propaganda in school.