Can a case be made for a Ukrainian civ for a Europe map?

[Sparkle]

And to the topic of this thread - Polish or Czech civ would be better than Ukrainean :-)

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
NO. Never. And who told You that all of us agree Russia should be included?

Go ahead, educate us why do you think Poland should be included instead of Russia.

Serb, the Iraqi flag suits You. hungreds of thousands victims of Saddam's rules salute your choice.

And those victims had different flag perhaps? Do you think it's Saddam personal banner?
Currently my thoughts with people who are trying to defend their motherland against foreign neo-colonial invasion, not with Saddam.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sparkle
Czech people see Poland as a religiously fanatical nation,

Russians have the same views, and Heresson is alive evidence that it's true. Heresson

But despite history (communism), Czechs do NOT hate the Russians. We like Russians. What we really hate is Americans. They are alien culture to us, Russia is not.

Yeah, let's bash Yanks instead of our internal Euro showdowns.

[Beren]

Originally posted by Sparkle
Czech rep is not catholic. Czech rep is ABSOLUTELY ATHEISTIC - people who believe in some kind of God, Allah, Jehova or whatever are just a minority here and religion has absolutely no influence on our life. Slovakia is catholic, on contrary. Czech people see Poland as a religiously fanatical nation, where church has influence on normal life of people which is something that we absolutely can´t understand. We have a big ukrainian minority here and most Czech people don´t like them, because most of them involve in black work and organized crime (or at least most of those who are seen by public).

But despite history (communism), Czechs do NOT hate the Russians. We like Russians. What we really hate is Americans. They are alien culture to us, Russia is not.

The Czech were real nationalists all the way back to the end of the Middle Ages (like the Polish as well.) John Hus succeeded to convert them to Hussian faith in the late middle ages (of course the rest of Europe didn't like it and came bashing onto this early form of protestantism mixed with Bohemian nationalism and in the end defeated it.) In fact the Thirty Years war was initiated over the Czech who wanted to be Lutheran. Too bad for you Czech the war didn't go so well and since then you have been catholics.
And of all countries in eastern Europe Czech (and Slovakia) is the only one with a big democratic tradition. Between the two world wars Czechoslovakia was the only steady eastern democratic country and they became allied with the French and Soviets (of course betrayed by the French.) After the war they managed a good treaty with Stalin assuring national independance in exchange of a good diplomatic relation. This time Stalin broke his word in the end (although it was a bit more complicated then that.)
If a country has had strong tendencies to other faiths in the early modern times and had to be converted with much efford, was quick to become a secular democracy (or even an atheistic communism) then I would agree that Czech is one of the most secular countries in the area. And that is something you can be very proud of. BECAUSE ALL RELIGION SUX.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Beren
BECAUSE ALL RELIGION SUX.

*I'm waiting for Saint Heresson's lecture*

[Heresson]

Czech rep is not catholic.
Czech rep is ABSOLUTELY ATHEISTIC - people who believe in some kind of God, Allah, Jehova or whatever are just a minority here and religion has absolutely no influence on our life.

From what I know, a third of population is catholic, and there are some protestants as well, but true, Czechs are the most de-religionised nation in Europe.

Slovakia is catholic, on contrary. Czech people see Poland as a religiously fanatical nation, where church has influence on normal life of people which is something that we absolutely can´t understand.

But despite history (communism), Czechs do NOT hate the Russians. We like Russians. What we really hate is Americans. They are alien culture to us, Russia is not.

Czechs are generally liked in Poland, which I can't understand in fact (as while I understand Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Byelorussian claims to what is theirs today, Czech occupation of Cieszyn up to today is for me
the only CompletelY unfair thing that happened to us)
Generally Czechs are nice as people, but their culture tends to be agressively atheistic and a bit rude in it.

Currently my thoughts with people who are trying to defend their motherland against foreign neo-colonial invasion, not with Saddam.

Neo-colonialism would be a suitable word for your war in Tchechenia I guess. When it comes to this one, You didn't seem to care when Iraqueese were dieing under Saddam. I think You are against this war only because
You are against America.

Between the two world wars Czechoslovakia was the only steady eastern democratic country

Which didn't stop it from persecuting Poles and Germans
and keeping Slovakians inside of it by force.

*I'm waiting for Saint Heresson's lecture*

Przebacz im, ojcze, gdyz nie wiedza, co czynia.
A wlasciwie mowia.

[Sparkle]

Originally posted by Beren

John Hus succeeded to convert them to Hussian faith in the late middle ages (of course the rest of Europe didn't like it and came bashing onto this early form of protestantism mixed with Bohemian nationalism and in the end defeated it.)

No no no no. Hussites were NEVER defeated by a foreign army. They had European crusaders for dinner :-) Their supremacy came to end when they were divided into 2 fractions - one was radical, consisted mostly of poor people and one moderate, with mostly noblemen in it. This moderate group allied with some Czech catholics, assassinated preacher and spiritual leader Jan Zelivsky, started a civil war and finally defeated the radical group in Battle at Lipany 1434.

[Sparkle]

Originally posted by Heresson

From what I know, a third of population is catholic, and there are some protestants as well, but true, Czechs are the most de-religionised nation in Europe.

Second most. After Albania.

Originally posted by Heresson
Which didn't stop it from persecuting Poles and Germans
and keeping Slovakians inside of it by force.

WHAT?? Germans were never persecuted in Czech rep before WW2. They occupied Sudetenland, the richest part of Czech rep, and were mainly factory owners and were very influential. They collaborated with Hitler who took the land from us and were persecuting us!!

And we did not keep Slovakia inside of it in force, don´t know where you got that. Slovakia was a poor agricultural country, while Czech rep was a rich industrial country and they were sooo happy that we will take care of them. Then the Slovaks collaborated with Hitler, they were sooo happy that Hitler will take care of them...

Originally posted by Heresson

I think You are against this war only because
You are against America.

That´s absolutely true. Czechs, in general, are quite cynical, with no bigger concerns about "higher ideals" like world peace. But still 85% of us are against war in Iraq - and that´s definitely not because someone would like Saddam :-))

[Heresson]

[qupte]
WHAT?? Germans were never persecuted in Czech rep before WW2. They occupied Sudetenland,
[/quote]

You mean: inhabited?

the richest part of Czech rep, and were mainly factory owners and were very influential. They collaborated with Hitler who took the land from us and were persecuting us!!

after some time, yes.
But yes, probably I'm wrong. I was transposing treating of Polish minority on treating of German one, while in fact I remember one Polish book of that time complaining that You are making efforts to colonise Cieszyn region while You should do that to German-inhabited ones.

And we did not keep Slovakia inside of it in force, don´t know where you got that. Slovakia was a poor agricultural country, while Czech rep was a rich industrial country and they were sooo happy that we will take care of them. Then the Slovaks collaborated with Hitler, they were sooo happy that Hitler will take care of them...

I think Slovakia owes a lot to Czechs; without them,
Spisz Orawa and Czadca would be Polish, and southern part would be Hungarian, if Slovakia would exist at all.
Still, from what I know, Slovakians felt dominated by Czechs, and the question of the name, which originally was supposed to be Czecho-Slovakia, not Czechoslovakia, was kind of significant for them.

[Sparkle]

Originally posted by Heresson
WHAT?? Germans were never persecuted in Czech rep before WW2. They occupied Sudetenland,

You mean: inhabited?

Eng-CZ Vocabulary on the web (www.seznam.cz)
occupy - bydlit
occupy - obsadit
occupy - obsadit (med.)
occupy - obsadit; voj.
occupy - okupovat
occupy - zabrat
occupy - zabÃrat
occupy - zabÃrat (èas i mÃsto)
occupy - zabývat se
occupy - zamìstnat
occupy - zaneprázdnit
occupy - zaujÃmat
occupy - zaujÃmat (èas i mÃsto)

So, the first and most common meaning of the word "occupy" is "to live" somewhere. And it´s also the meaning that I consider. The word has only one meaning in Czech, but it has more meanings in English. Like if I said "My occupation is programmer analyst" and you would think that I occupy some poor analysts :-))

Originally posted by Heresson
I think Slovakia owes a lot to Czechs; without them,
Spisz Orawa and Czadca would be Polish, and southern part would be Hungarian, if Slovakia would exist at all.

I was really trying to avoid any comments on your "evil Czechs took our land" thing. But this is ridiculous. What junk do your history teachers fill into your heads?? YOU started the whole conflict by occupying (now the second meaning of the word is used) Tesin, part of Orava and part of Spis in November 1918. Then you were trying to negotiate some "fair" deal which was unacceptable for us so we took our army and pushed you back to Visla. All this "operation" did last 7 days and was approved by The Triple Alliance. The peace treaty was also arranged by TTA and if you have such great knowledge about that, then you surely know that it was signed 28.7.1920 and while we got Bohumin railway and Coal area, you got east Tesin area and part of Orava and Spis. So, yeah without our armies Orava and Spis would have been all yours, beacouse you would have taken it from us by force. Fortunately there was, and still is, something called the Czechs to prevent Poles from being too aggressive :-)

Originally posted by Heresson
Still, from what I know, Slovakians felt dominated by Czechs, and the question of the name, which originally was supposed to be Czecho-Slovakia, not Czechoslovakia, was kind of significant for them.

You know, village-people hate city-people, because they feel inferior. While city-people don´t care about village-people, because they have no reason to hate them. The same relationship is between a country and its colony, and a country and its smaller and poorer neighbor. Slovaks have been jealous towards Czechs. Their hate for us is only one sided. We don´t have anything against them. It´s just their complex with no rational reason.

And the Czechoslovakia and Czecho-Slovakia thing...
there was a big argument over country name in 1990, whether it should be Czechoslovak or Czecho-Slovak federative republic. Finally Slovaks received what they wanted and the country´s official name became Czech and Slovak federative republic. And 2 years later they got complete independency. So there´s no need for Slovaks to feel hurt. And if I remember correctly, this "name war" in 1990 was only between politicians, with common people not caring about it and only being disgusted by arguments over such insignificant thing.

But I see we´re really offtopic now, so I better leave that.

[Beren]

So what? I like this topic better than the stuff about the Ukrainians.
And now Slovakia has been independant for a while.... Are they really better of whitout the Czechs?

Oh and about the war... I have just turned anti-war the last couple of days, because I realised Bush is in it for religious purposes.

[XarXo]

Slovakia, probably, only exist beacuse there isn't an Bush-Hussein ideal president in the neighbour countries.

Slovakia is the example of a new type of state, it exist because the people that live inside want, not because they were invaded (a very new type of state created after the 1989 fall of Berlin wall with Letonia, Lituania and Estonia). I think (or want think) that this is the normal evolution of states inside europe, each one fracted and joined to conform a correctess borders with language, population, nantional feelings and history with PEACE (a TOTAL INNOVATION!!).

[Sparkle]

Originally posted by Beren
And now Slovakia has been independant for a while.... Are they really better of whitout the Czechs?

No, they are definitely not :-)) Slovak people, compared to Czechs, have never had a political culture, so after they became independent, they quickly fell into webs of various populistic, extremist and mad politicians. Mr Meciar, a charismatic nationalist madman, won elections and ruined the country. Slovakia became a despotism, police state with human rights restricted, opposition politics threatened with life etc. Fortunately Slovak people used their last chance - elections in 1998 (already influenced with corruption) and voted for democratic opposition. There were new elections last year in Slovakia, and even though democrats won again, new threats emerged from new populistic parties which would never be successful in a country which has a developed democracy. Slovakia is poorer than Czech rep, poorer than Poland for example but richer than Ukraine definitely.

Originally posted by Beren
Oh and about the war... I have just turned anti-war the last couple of days, because I realised Bush is in it for religious purposes.

Man, you didn´t realise that before??? :-))))
What are your information resources like??
We had a religious study of mr. Bush in our newspapers weeks before Iraq conflict... he´s an extremist, member of a sect...

[Sparkle]

Originally posted by XarXo
Slovakia is the example of a new type of state, it exist because the people that live inside want, not because they were invaded (a very new type of state created after the 1989 fall of Berlin wall with Letonia, Lituania and Estonia). I think (or want think) that this is the normal evolution of states inside europe, each one fracted and joined to conform a correctess borders with language, population, nantional feelings and history with PEACE (a TOTAL INNOVATION!!).

Man, you know why split of Czechoslovakia was peaceful?
Because both Czechs and Slovaks are too cowardly and flegmatic to make any action.
Czech people just care about their bed, job, kids and beer. And are totally apathic towards any "global" thing. We have 35% people coming for last elections.

Slovakia is better in this, but you must consider that Slovakian nation created istelf in 18th century by mixing Hungarian and various Slavic people and common Slovak language was artificially created by Ludovit Stur in 1843. Where is no tradition, there can be not much patriotism...

[Beren]

Originally posted by Sparkle
Man, you didn´t realise that before??? :-))))
What are your information resources like??
We had a religious study of mr. Bush in our newspapers weeks before Iraq conflict... he´s an extremist, member of a sect...

Well, I realised Bush was extremely religious and that was one of the main reasons for the war. But in the end I don't really care what people intend to do, I care about the effects. Now I see Bush will use this war to send in Billy Graham Fundamentalists (America's unique unit) to convert the infidel Iraqis to the Christian faith and he will strengthen his own christian possision (and to be clear: I hate deeply religious people.) On the other hand, there is still a chance that Bush might bring democracy as a compromise to the westerners. I am in constant doubt what the overall effect of the war will be. In fact I am neutral. (But any American who reads this, use your sense and propagate against reelection of this fanatic.)