Can a case be made for a Ukrainian civ for a Europe map?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Azazel

there were no greeks? rrrrright.

Oh, whatever.

Of course there weren't, as all Greeks at this time were Romans, or "Romans", if You like.

[Az]

No, I am not going to reply to this.

[joncnunn]

Completely wrong.

Even when they were at war with the Gauls when their capital was Rivenna in what is now Italy they regarded themselves as Romans.

Originally posted by Azazel
The point was that we are not talking about culture, but about nationality as well.

Byzantines didn't see themselves as Romans, although Bizantium considered itself to be the successor or Rome.

[joncnunn]

Their spoken langauge started as Roman, but gradually added Greek words and dropped Roman words and evenually became more Greek than Roman, but the process was too slow for the general populance to notice.

Originally posted by Azazel
right, that's why the spoken language was greek!

[joncnunn]

The Roman culture heavilly adopted Greek Culture, to the extent that Greek became the langauge of commerce throughout much of the Roman empire.
By the time the Roman empire split, they had completely merged into one culture.

Even as they Eastern Roman Empire was being overrun by the Ottoman Turks, they regarded themselves as Romans.

Originally posted by Azazel

there were no greeks? rrrrright.

Oh, whatever.

[Az]

How did the greek nationality emerge, then?

[Beren]

Well, partly because of the church and partly from the language and partly because of the collective heritage, but is your point really that the Greeks had a national feeling because of the Byzantines. Maybe you would have to take a look at the timeframe:
1453 - Constantinople is finally taken by the Turks, in the last century they were not more than a city anyway. It had been centuries before the Byzantine Empire was a major player in the area.
1830 - Greece becomes independant

As you can see there is a gap of 400 years in which the nationalist Byzantine/Greek movement didn't do really that much. In fact it only really came into existence after nationalist movements in Germany, Poland and the impulses of Russia given to the Greek orthodox church.

[Heresson]

Azazel:

[Az]

I guess you're right.

But this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Azazel
I guess you're right.

I'm always right. Haven't You noticed?

But this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

Who cares. A thread can have several different topics.

[Beren]

Well I know where your argument comes from: the Greeks did claim they were restoring the Byzantine Empire. But the Byzantines felt, though they practically were culturally and in language Greek, Roman.

[Az]

I'm always right. Haven't You noticed?

puddle of mud.

Who cares. A thread can have several different topics.

I brought that issue only to demonstrate it as an example of my point. The fact that this has ben a false example, does not invalidate my point.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Azazel

puddle of mud.

Nice to meet You!

I brought that issue only to demonstrate it as an example of my point. The fact that this has ben a false example, does not invalidate my point.

It does

[Serb]

I can't believe Heresson is still spaming here.
Somebody, please shoot him.

[Az]

shhh. I am spamming here , too.

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