MOD: Patch suggestion MOD (PtW version)

[player1]

Ok I'll keep Ai strategies.

P.S.
But will do other changes: bomb str. of 2 & 4 (instead of 3 & 5).

[kettyo]

Originally posted by player1
Ok I'll keep Ai strategies.

P.S.
But will do other changes: bomb str. of 2 & 4 (instead of 3 & 5).

They'll be less effective for mine/irrigation/road/railroad bombing.
And more planes would be needed to use for killing (hitting) 1hp enemies. (it's not definitively a positive change)

[player1]

Hmm....

Maybe you are right.

But in that case I would still need to INCREASE price of Stl. Fighter, since I plan to add original cost of 240 to Stl. Bomber (so fighter needs to be less cost effective).

And to compensate for power of leathal/stealth combo.

[alexman]

Instead of increasing the cost of the stealth fighter, why don't you reduce its strength back to 4 (as it was originally)? The lethal ability compensates for its very slight disadvantage in cost-effectiveness compared to the stealth bomber, and its stealth ability is good enough to justify building it over the slightly less expensive (but equally cost-effective) Jet Fighters.

[player1]

I'll think about it.

P.S.
Now, it's all messed up in my head.

I am not even sure, what I should and what I should not change.

[alexman]

Maybe this will help:

         ===ORIGINAL===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Fighter     2    1     8   0.17     16
         Bomber      8    3    10   1.33    100
         Jet Ftr     2    1    10   0.17     13
         F-15        4    2    10   0.57     43 
         St. Ftr     4    2    12   0.57     36
         St. Bbr     8    3    24   1.33     42
         Cruise     16    3     6   1.85    231*+

         ===PROPOSED===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Fighter     2    2     8   0.33     31+
         Bomber      8    3    10   1.33    100
         Jet Ftr     3    2    10   0.46     35+
         F-15        5    2    10   0.67     50*+
         St. Ftr     4    2    12   0.57     36*+
         St. Bbr     8    3    24   1.33     42
         Cruise     16    4     6   2.46    308*+

         Tables assume a 10-strength defender
         Str = Bombard Strength
         ROF = Rate of fire
         Cost = shield cost / 10
         Dmg = expected damage in HP
         Value = Percentage of cost-effectiveness of bomber.
         * = lethal land bombard
         + = lethal sea bombard

[player1]

After some thinking, here is the deal:

Batteships and AEGIS Cruiser get ROF reduced to 2 (from 3).
To compensate a little, they get Bomb. Str. increased to 10 (Batteship was 8) and 6 (AEGIS was 4). Also Batteship will get a little lower price of 220 (was 240).


Now, for air units, first I'll give original cost of 240 to Stl. Bomber.
Then, cost of Stl. Fighter will be changed to new price of 160.


What do you think?


P.S.
Bom. Str of 5 with cost of 160 will give 31 value for Stl. Fighter in that chart (and, by the way, you forgot * in for Jet Fighter).

Now this looks low, but you should consider that this is STEALTH craft, which gives many benefits (there is a reson why Stl. Bomber has just value of 42).

Or maybe it's to much and I whould drop it to 140?

[player1]

Here we go again (another revision):

Battleship: 10/2 (was 8/3), cost 220 (was 240)
AEGIS Cruiser: 6/2 (was 4/3)

Jet Fighter: 4/2 (was 3/2)
F-15: 6/2 (was 5/2)
Stl. Fighter: 6/2 (was 5/2), cost 160 (was 120)
Stl. Bomber: cost 240 (was 200)

P.S.
And of course spy changes I discussed before (steal world map for diplomats and veteran spy status).

[kettyo]

When you'd have interest i'll list the changes i've done on the current version of your mod. Maybe you could find something you'll like in it.


-air units changes
fighter has lethal land/naval bombing
jet fighter has a rof of 3, bombing strenght of 2
stealthfighter has no lethal bombing, has a rof of 3, bombing strenght of 4
f15 has a rof of 3, bombing strenght of 3
(converted fighter-class planes bombing stats to base on rof of 3 for them to have more chance to hit and destroy
a damaged enemy land/sea unit with the expense of less damage caused but it's a worthy change IMO because fighter-class
planes are mostly used to finish off bombed/damaged enemy ground units in the offense)
(stealthfighter is actually a bomber the way it's implemented in the game (real stealthfighters can also shoot down air units) so i took lethal bombing ability from them and increased their bombing power instead)

-following units have detect subs ability
fighter,jet fighter,f-15,carrier
(In real world there are specific anti-sub planes like the Nimrod of the US Navy, in Civ3 there aren't such planes.
I gave sub-seeing ability to fighters because only these planes can actually sink a (damaged) sub)
(Carrier's ability represents helicopter patrols around the carrier not a cutting-edge sonar)

-other changes to naval units
nukesub: carries 2 missiles (incl. nuclear), costs 14
cruiser: carries 2 cruise missiles, costs 18
carrier: carries 8 planes,costs 30
(the graphic shows nimitz class so be really huge)
battleship: carries 1 cruise missile

-from cannon up bombarding land units get defense values to be counter-bombardable and could be bombed by planes and missiles (though they can't be captured anymore)
cannon: 1 defense
artillery: 1 defense
radar artillery: 2 defense

-no bonus against barbarians at all difficulty levels

[player1]

Originally posted by player1
Here we go again (another revision):

Battleship: 10/2 (was 8/3), cost 220 (was 240)
AEGIS Cruiser: 6/2 (was 4/3)

Jet Fighter: 4/2 (was 3/2)
F-15: 6/2 (was 5/2)
Stl. Fighter: 6/2 (was 5/2), cost 160 (was 120)
Stl. Bomber: cost 240 (was 200)

P.S.
And of course spy changes I discussed before (steal world map for diplomats and veteran spy status).

I think I'll go with this version exept if there is some serius flaw here.

Comments:
Battleships get lower bombard efficiency in order to make bomber on carriers more needed. Before you could do well without any air support (exept air-defense on carriers).

And of course upped a little bomb. abilities of fighter-type planes (IMO upping ROF would not be good since that would make Cruise Missiles much less usefull).

Stl Fighter more expensive to relfect change in Stl. Bomber price to original 240.

Batteship a little bit cheaper (220) to compensate for lower bombard capability.

[kettyo]

Originally posted by player1
IMO upping ROF would not be good since that would make Cruise Missiles much less usefull

I disagree.
Cruise missiles are most useful for destroying garrisons of enemy cities (because it always hit units never pop or buildings and never misses). Secondly it's good for attacking enemy units during air inferiority (because it can't be shot down).

And increasing ROF of fighter-class planes makes them more effective in finishing off 1hp units -> less fighters used for the 'final blow'-s -> more fighters remain for air superiority (which was your intention)

[kettyo]

In my version of your mod an overseas invasion starts with packs of cruise missiles (launched from cruisers/subs/battleships) destroying the garrison of an enemy harbor city (or more) than in the same turn marines capture this city(es) and then immediately ground forces land in the city(es) to secure.

The AI uses sea-based cruise missile attacks during their invasions too though with less strategic pre-planning.

[player1]

True,

But I did try to increase accuracy of Jets/F-15/Stl. by giving them a little bit higher bomabrd rating (but not ROF).

On average, it IS somewere in the middile between your setting and my old settings.


Now, the question is, how AI in your MOD uses oversea cruise missiles?

Did you added AI Naval transport flag?

Do they use same transport using at offense too (attacking), since normally only one AI behavior is selected after unit gets built (so he would use one cuiser for transport and another for attacking).

P.S.
And doesn't your strategy make land invasions a little bit too easy? (less need for supporting carriers since missiles are caried by normal ships, and if you have carriers they can load huge number of fighters/bombers).

[kettyo]

Originally posted by player1
Now, the question is, how AI in your MOD uses oversea cruise missiles?

Did you added AI Naval transport flag?

Have set cruiser and battleship to AI naval power ,AI naval missile transport, 'carry tactical missiles', and foot unit only.
I've set cruise missiles to 'tactical missile' and 'foot unit'.

Originally posted by player1
Do they use same transport using at offense too (attacking), since normally only one AI behavior is selected after unit gets built (so he would use one cuiser for transport and another for attacking).

It's hard to observe because you just see a missile impact.
But i still haven't seen cruisers/battleships running away from chanceful battles because they might carried missiles before.

Originally posted by player1
P.S.
And doesn't your strategy make land invasions a little bit too easy? (less need for supporting carriers since missiles are caried by normal ships, and if you have carriers they can load huge number of fighters/bombers).

Maybe but man i call my mod: naval power mod.

[player1]

Originally posted by kettyo
Maybe but man i call my mod: naval power mod.

Exactly.