MOD: Patch suggestion MOD (PtW version)

[planetfall]

for player1

Originally posted by planetfall


For discussion see:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67352&highlight=guerilla

Consensus was to make following changes to guerilla:

movement: 2
added: no terrain movement handicap
added: invisible

Most wanted to keep A.D the same. I think it makes more sense to make A.D 6.4.

Changes needed to other units:
infantry: see invisible
mech: see invisible
cav: see invisible

NB: tanks/MA do not get to see them.

== PF

In case you missed the update, 90:6.6.2 is unbalancing.

I am trying 80:5.2.2 so AI does not use guerrilla instead of infantry. Unit is then stronger than rifleman in offense but weaker than cavs. Unit is weaker in defense than rifleman, musketman and cav's.

Intentionally making defense weak so they remain a speciality unit and not a general production unit.

-- PF

[player1]

In case you missed the update, 90:6.6.2 is unbalancing.In case you missed the update, 90:6.6.2 is unbalancing.

That why is stick to 7/6/1 unit.

I am trying 80:5.2.2 so AI does not use guerrilla instead of infantry. Unit is then stronger than rifleman in offense but weaker than cavs. Unit is weaker in defense than rifleman, musketman and cav's.

An interesting concept for a unit, but I'll stick to conservative settings similar to original PtW.

[player1]

Version 1.11 is out!

Comments to changes in v1.11

Cossaks get AI defense flag removed, since I've seen Russians using Cossaks instead Infantry to defend cities. And that's not good.

Frigate gets attack of 3, while Man-O-War gets attack of 4, but with original defense of 2. My reasoning was, that historicly, main difference between Ironclads and sailing ships was in ARMOR, and NOT in weapons. These changes reflect that. Ironclad has not much better offense, but has pretty good defense. With new stats Man-O-War becomes pretty interesting vessel. Has attack power of Ironclad (cannon heavy ship), while on the other hand is pretty vulnerable against Ironclads (and even Frigates).

These changes made Ironclad not so much powerful as before so price is reduced to 90 (but not back to original 80, since that would ALWAYS make them better choice then Frigate).

Caravels get back defense of 2 (to be protected from Galleys). Plus, since Privateer is based on smaller ships like Caravel, I've added defense of 2 to Privateers (they should not be more vulnerable then Caravel), but gave them original cost of 60 shields.

NOTE: All changes done in v1.11 are also done in non-PtW version of this MOD.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by player1

That why is stick to 7/6/1 unit.

An interesting concept for a unit, but I'll stick to conservative settings similar to original PtW.

I understand. I am looking for a Shield:A.D.M value that would

1. enable the guerrilla unit to work like guerrillas, pop out, do a bit of damage, and then disappear, and

2. not be so strong that we have armies of guerrilla's build.

The default movement of 1 is too unreal for me. A guerrilla/terrorist is not always seen. With a movement of 1 and with visible units, there is no disappearing act performed by the unit. It is really cool to have a tank column stopped for next turn, and suddenly see a weak tank attacked by an invisible unit. Quickly learn to bring infantry along. The guerrillas still attack, but now I can see the buggers.

Again I have a problem with the default defense of 6 for guerrillas. I think Firaxis only put this here because they couldn't get invisible working the way they wanted in time. Guerrilla's defense is hiding not fighting.

I see no reason to have guerrilla's stronger than paratroopers. Rather than increase strength, decrease cost.

BTW-- have changed most of my preferences for next game to your "mod" as they seemed to offer the possibility of enhanced play. Will let you know what I think after a full game.

== PF

[fuji]

thought i should let you know that i've been playing with your mod, and love the way the game plays... like it originally was intended...

that said, i thought i'd share the few changes that i've made, and perhaps you will decide if they are worth testing/investigating further...

Carrier increased capacity to 8. I feel that since historically, carriers are the ships that put an end to battleships, and are supposed to be the king of the sea... i felt they should carry more firepower. Especially considering the limited strength that air power has in this game...

The other change i made, Guerrilla... here's what i did, though it might be too much for you... we shall see...
ADM changed to 6/4/2
all terrain as grassland
hidden nationality
I felt that defense should be lowered drastically (2 points) but they should have the ability to retreat. Realistically, guerrillas would get destroyed in a standard fight, but their strength lies in the ability to hit the enemy wherever they are, and then retreat quickly.

The final change i made was to make an upgrade path from calvary/sipahi to paratroopers. Figured that hellicopters and cargo plains would be the horses that paratroopers rode into battle with.... but mainly did it cause i hate having ~40 odd calvary that are nothing more than pillagers....

Anyways, these changes might not fit in with your goals for this mod, but figured i'd throw it out to you...

enjoy

[player1]

Originally posted by fuji
Carrier increased capacity to 8. I feel that since historically, carriers are the ships that put an end to battleships, and are supposed to be the king of the sea... i felt they should carry more firepower. Especially considering the limited strength that air power has in this game...

I just feel that it's unneeded.
Still if you think that Carriers need some boost I would recommend 6, not 8 units, since 8 is too much if you ask me.

Originally posted by fuji
The other change i made, Guerrilla... here's what i did, though it might be too much for you... we shall see...
ADM changed to 6/4/2
all terrain as grassland
hidden nationality
I felt that defense should be lowered drastically (2 points) but they should have the ability to retreat. Realistically, guerrillas would get destroyed in a standard fight, but their strength lies in the ability to hit the enemy wherever they are, and then retreat quickly.

Not much to comment here.
Others have propesed similar things.

But, I think that hidden nat. flag is really powerfull thing.
War would be waged non-stop in the game.

And in cases you have not Rubber, hidden nat. units would be main offensive force too.

Originally posted by fuji
The final change i made was to make an upgrade path from calvary/sipahi to paratroopers. Figured that hellicopters and cargo plains would be the horses that paratroopers rode into battle with.... but mainly did it cause i hate having ~40 odd calvary that are nothing more than pillagers....

I just don't like upgardes which downgrade some of units abilities.

Like making from move 3 unit, a move 1 unit.

[player1]

Originally posted by fuji
Anyways, these changes might not fit in with your goals for this mod, but figured i'd throw it out to you...

No problem.
I like good discussion.

P.S.
That Carrier transport space got me wodering.

Who knows, maybe some new version of MOD will have Carriers with transport capacity of 6.
Or maybe not?

[Caliban]

I made my carrier 3.10.6 (should at least be able to sink galleys); transport capacity 6; costs same as battleship (460 shields in my little world).

[player1]

Thing that could be interesting to add in next version:

Changing spy experience to Veteran (was Regular) for all non-communist governments and to Elite (was Veteran) for Communist government.

That way, I'll increase chances for spying missions, which are by default low.

I will not change Diplomat experience from Regular, so you'll have good reason to use spy instead of Diplomat for Steal Tech mission.


Also I'm thinking about adding Steal World Map mission to Diplomats.
World Map is most useful in ancient era anyway.


What do you think?

[Ismailov]

Good ideas. When I play, I only use spies to investigate cities and to check the spaceships of my enemies. So, this part of the game is not well exploited.

[player1]

Although steal tech mission is pretty good in modern era when you can steal tech for about 2000-2500gp (safe), while buying price is 5000-10000gp.

Of course, you can fail sometimes (even with safe option), but it still pays off from time to time.

[planetfall]

re guerrillas unit update

Player1,

When changed guerrilla to 80:5.2.2 invisible, no terrain penalty, the AI did NOT build more than 1 or 2 units.

Next game I will try back to 80:6.2.2 and see if then the AI will decide to build them.

I must have set my editor preferences wrong. My 2 guerrillas were wiped out by longbows. Either I thought I checked invisible and I didn't or the older units disregarded the invisible flag.

== PF

[player1]

Several retro-changes I'm planning:

ROF for Batteship and AEGIS Cruiser will be changed back to 2.

With ROF of 3, they were realy powerfull, especialy Batteship, which could be as good as bomber, and also an assault ship.

Jet's bombard strenght will be put back to 2, while F-15 and Stl. Fighter will get 4.
Also Stl. Bomber gets original price of 240.
While this will make Fighter and Jet with same bomard strenght, remember that Jet has lethal land flag and range of 6.
Older aircraft changes didn't add much in gameplay, but have forced cheaper price of Stl. Bomber (and original price of 240 is better).

What do you think?
Good or bad?


P.S.
Also I'm having mixed feeling about Air Bombard strategy for Jets and Fighters.
Basicly, units made using this strategy will be used for bombard and NEVER for Air Super. missions, which is not good. On the other hand if I take that flag out, only human will use them for bomabrd against heavily wonded units, making good use of lethal flag. Still in most cases AI would not be fighting wounded units, and bom. str. of 2 is usualy not enough to take out 1hp unit with one try (he'll need at least several Fighters, which means a lot of Fighters never used for Air Super.)

So on the average taking out those flags would be good option.

Still, F-15 and St; Fighter will keep it as usual.

[planetfall]

guerrilla preference update

Same game but new information after scrolling down in F3, there are guerrillas.

I preferenced the stats wrong: instead of 80:5.2.2 I entered 70:5.2.2. Now don't think it is necessary to change to 70.6.2.2. However the preference is almost right. The AI is using guerrilla's for defense. In editor default is both AI Off & Def. This needs to be changed to just offense.

So far AI action looks about right. 2 civs left: germany & Arabs.

Germany
infantry 100
panzers 40
guerrillas 2

Arabs
infantry 50
guerrillas 20
tanks 0

But on the Arab continent troops available are:
Germany
infantry 2
panzers 20
guerrillas 0

Arabs
Infantry 45
guerrillas 20

Other than an AI error where guerrilla is defending city, AI action with guerrilas is about right. I am making new mech so I can find the pesty guerrillas. Arabs have rubber but not much cash. New build rate is about 2 guerrillas to 1 infantry. This makes sense with the invading forces on continent. Since they are almost all tanks, guerrillas make more sense than infantry. Unfortunately what I have not seen is hit-run with guerrilla, instead what I am seeing is move-hit. I don't know yet if this is situational or AI not making full use of guerrilla unit. I only have one city on AI continent and the 3 tiles leading to the city are unroaded.

Cool to see guerrilla attacks. I almost lost a 3 panzer army to 6 guerrillas. Only saved because even thought in red, the army was in a city and with last attack other units are more powerful defenders than red coded army.

Test will be to see once get more balanced infantry/tanks on Arab continent if build balance for Arabia switches to 1:1 infantry:guerrilla or 2:1 infantry:guerrilla.
I would like to see at least 2:1 infantry:guerrilla. But afraid I will have to raise cost to 80:5.2.2 to decrease slight extra builds of guerrillas.

I don't know which the AI values more:
the 2 movement ability, or
the 6 offense vs 5 offense.

Obviously AI does not value the 12 defense vs 2 defense as anything of real value.

Will keep you posted if find any other interesting news.

== PF

[kettyo]

Originally posted by player1
Also I'm having mixed feeling about Air Bombard strategy for Jets and Fighters.
Basicly, units made using this strategy will be used for bombard and NEVER for Air Super. missions, which is not good.

In Civ3 1.29f lethal fighters work perfectly (they defend as well).
In Ptw 1.14f i still don't know but i'll try too.

You MUST keep them this way (at least with non-ptw ver.). It's so great as they are now. (maybe stealth fighter doesn't fit as lethal bomber but other users might like them as lethal too)