MOD: Patch suggestion MOD (PtW version)

[player1]

Version 1.1 is OUT!

Comments to changes in v1.1

MOD has been made compatible with new v1.14f PtW patch. This includes several fixes, like removing Frigate from England build list (was a bug), changing Spanish AI Wealth preference from build never to build often strategy, and adding load flags to all king units. Some things I already did in this MOD were also fixed in new patch (Bezerk and Hwacha upgrade paths and AI Explore flag for Keshik and Conquistador).

Cossaks get defense AI flag added. Cossaks had this flag in original Civ3, but it was removed in PtW. Still, since in this MOD Cossaks got defense rating increased to 5, I added that flag back too.

All king units get Airlift ability. Considering that now all king units have Load ability (which makes them transportable by ships), I think that having them Airlift ability should be allowed too. Leaders to fly by planes anyway.

[Caliban]

Originally posted by Ismailov
I made my own rules mod. I have not posted it in apolyton because it is so radical, and I understand it is interesting only for me...

Why don't you post this mod? Two playtesters are better than one.

Sorry, player 1, this has nothing to do with the patch suggestion mod, but it had to be posted...

[player1]

No problem.

Still, I've see many MODs which are made by aurthor sake only (not to many replays in boards), all posted in these forums.

And some people do donwload them.

Ismailov,
Don't worry and just post your MOD in new thread in Creation forum.

[Ismailov]

Ok, pehaps I'll do... But only after I have included enough information to understand the changes of the mod....

[player1]

Yes,
That could be somtimes problematic.

I spent 2 hours writing readme for first version of my MOD.

[alexman]

I'm not sure if you have seen this, but after an idea by The_Aussie_Lurker, we have made the following changes to the AU:

• Increased movement cost of Ocean by 1.
• Gave all ships except Galleys the ability to ignore movement in Ocean.

Galleys without the Lighthouse are not really affected, except that suicide runs in the Ocean (not Sea) are made more difficult.

Galleys with the Lighthouse could get two tiles deep in Ocean and back safely before. Now they can get only one tile deep and back safely.

Caravels and everything after that are unaffected.

We made the change with these goals in mind:

• To weaken the Great Lighthouse so that it's not unbalancing on archipelago maps. The human recognizes the value of this Wonder, and builds it at all costs when isolated on an island. The AI has no such priority.
• To make suicide exporation missions of galleys and caravels less effective. This levels the playing field because the AI never performs suicide runs.
• To make Caravels more important for exploration, as they were in reality.
• To delay intercontinental contacts and settling of empty continents. This might make Explorers more useful, and give a historical feel of discovering a New World.

[alexman]

What do you think of AEGIS having the ability to transport tactical missiles like in the BT Mod?

Also, don't you think the AI defense flag for Cossaks might hurt the AI in some cases? Imagine that the AI needs defensive units and builds Cossaks instead of Musketmen. Before Nationalism everything is fine, but when Riflemen are available, the Russian AI will keep the 5-defense Cossaks (that don't upgrade) and it will think everything is OK defensively. Humans would use those Cossaks for attack, but the AI is stuck with them instead of making new 6-defense Riflemen, or even worse, Infantry. Why not go back to standard PTW for Cossaks? Maybe give them another bonus, like blitz or ignoring extra movement cost of some terrain.

[player1]

In 1.29f Civ3 I haven't seen any problems with Cossaks.
Same with Samurai (which also have defense AI flag).

So I don't think that Cossaks will be problem.

If there ARE a problems, contact me imediatly and post a saved game.


P.S.
By the way, Cossaks have hidden benefit of manking enemy Cavalry unable to retreat when attacking them.


P.P.S.
I haven't seen problem with Legionares either (they have defense too).
They upgrade to Med. Inf. (or do NOT upgarde at all in non-PtW Civ3) and AI start building Pikemen and Musketmens later without problems.

I assume that AI would see that Riflemen is better and that he would gradualy replace Cossaks with Riflemen and later Infantry.

[player1]

Originally posted by alexman
I'm not sure if you have seen this, but after an idea by The_Aussie_Lurker, we have made the following changes to the AU:

• Increased movement cost of Ocean by 1.
• Gave all ships except Galleys the ability to ignore movement in Ocean.

Galleys without the Lighthouse are not really affected, except that suicide runs in the Ocean (not Sea) are made more difficult.

Galleys with the Lighthouse could get two tiles deep in Ocean and back safely before. Now they can get only one tile deep and back safely.

Caravels and everything after that are unaffected.

We made the change with these goals in mind:

• To weaken the Great Lighthouse so that it's not unbalancing on archipelago maps. The human recognizes the value of this Wonder, and builds it at all costs when isolated on an island. The AI has no such priority.
• To make suicide exporation missions of galleys and caravels less effective. This levels the playing field because the AI never performs suicide runs.
• To make Caravels more important for exploration, as they were in reality.
• To delay intercontinental contacts and settling of empty continents. This might make Explorers more useful, and give a historical feel of discovering a New World.

Too big change for me.

And personnaly, I don't see problem with risky Galley and Caravel travel.

It was popular in Civ1, Civ2 and Civ3.
I don't want to break the tradition.


And isolated continents will still be isolated in most cases.
These chnages woun't chnage that exept in some rare border cases.


P.S.
And it would be unfair to non-PtW Civers since it can't be incorporated in non-PtW version of this MOD.

[player1]

What do you think of AEGIS having the ability to transport tactical missiles like in the BT Mod?

Learning AI to use this in his benefit would be problematic.

And then it would be pain to balance.
How much missiles?
1, 2 or 3??


And AEGIS is already a decent unit.
With upped defense of 12, and lots of unque abilties (radar, see subs), it's PERFECT escort vessel.

[alexman]

Originally posted by player1
In 1.29f Civ3 I haven't seen any problems with Cossaks.

Unless you play in debug mode, you can't see what the AI is doing, so you can't see the problems. 1.29f had no debug mode.

Let me repeat the problem. The AI wants to have a certain number of defensive units per city. Usually defensive units can upgrade so they stay up-to-date. But if you have defensive Cossaks, they get counted as defensive units even though they wouldn't stand a chance against Tanks. They don't get replaced by Riflemen unless the AI starts losing them in defensive battles. It's better to keep the Cossaks as offensive units.

Same with Samurai (which also have defense AI flag).

This is not relevant. Samurai upgrade to Cavalry so they lose their defense flag.

If there ARE a problems, contact me imediatly and post a saved game.

Sorry, I no longer have time to play with your mod. 1.14f and the AU mod don't give Cossaks the defense flag.

I haven't seen problem with Legionares either (they have defense too).

Again, upgrading to Med. Infantry causes the unit to lose their defense flag.

And personnaly, I don't see problem with risky Galley and Caravel travel.

The problem is not the risky travel (although the AI doesn't do it), it's more the unbalancing effect of the Great Lighthouse on island maps.

And isolated continents will still be isolated in most cases.

That's not true. With the Lighthouse you can safely see 3 tiles past the last Sea tile (2 ocean tiles out plus 1 in the sight of the ship). This means that oceans need to be at least 4 tiles wide everywhere to ensure isolation. This is very rarely the case in random maps.

These changes woun't change that exept in some rare border cases.

With the changes, Galley+Lighthouse can no longer safely see 3 tiles past the last Sea tile (they can see only 2). They can no longer safely cross 3 tile wide Oceans (they can safely cross only 1 ocean tile). This makes a big difference.

And it would be unfair to non-PtW Civers since it can't be incorporated in non-PtW version of this MOD.

What about your Elephants in jungle then, for example?

Learning AI to use this in his benefit would be problematic.

That's a good point.

[player1]

Originally posted by alexman
Again, upgrading to Med. Infantry causes the unit to lose their defense flag.

I was talking about SAME experience in non-PtW version too.

AI build Legions, then starts building Pikemen (while Legions are NOT obsolete in non-PtW version), and then Musketen.

Originally posted by alexman
What about your Elephants in jungle then, for example?

That's just a minor tweak.

[player1]

As for ships.

Well, that proposal is just big change.

It would dramaticly change the way how some maps are played.

Still, even if you could cross 3 tiles of ocean, you could still not make TRADE with those Islands. A big disadvantage indeed.

[player1]

When I get Lighthouse I feel more like Viking explorers who founded Greenland and North America..

[player1]

Things planned for next version:

Cossaks will be get AI defense flag removed.
I've seen Russians using Cossaks to defend cities instead of Infantry.
That's not good.

Still I'll keep their defense of 5. They would not be primary defenders, but they would be though to take out on open, and Musketmen although a little bit weaker are pretty cheap. Still, Riflemen comes pretty quickly, so all problems would be solved then.


Next, I plan to change Frigate a little bit.
First, Frigate will get attack of 3, which means stats 3(2)/2/4.
While Man-O-War will get attack of 4, but with original defense of 2, which means stats of 4(3)/2/4.
While Ironclads would get a little bit reduced cost of 90 (still more then original).

I would not increase bombard strenght of thsese units, since that would encourage "bomb with several, destroy with one" strategy too much.


My resoning was, that historicly, main difference between Ironclads and wooden ships was in ARMOR, and NOT in weapons. These changes reflect that. Ironlcad has not much better offense, but has pretty good defense.
With new stats Man-O-War becomes pretty interesting vessel. Attack power of Ironclad (cannon heavy ship), while on the other hand pretty vunerable against Ironclads (and even Frigates).

Ironclad is not so much owerpowering as before so price would be reduced to 90, but not back to original 80, since that would ALWAYS make them better choice then Firgate.


What do you think?
Are these changes good?



P.S.
Also I'm thinking about giving Caravels back defense of 2 (to be protected from Galleys).
Plus, since Privateer is based on smaller ships like Caravel, I would add defense of 2 to Privateers (they should not be more vunerable then Caravel), but give them original cost od 60 (stats of 2/2/4, 60). With higher attack and bombard rating, Frigate is still better.