MOD: Patch suggestion MOD (PtW version)

[player1]

Originally posted by Caliban
I know you won't change the guerilla THAT much, player 1, but I wanted to put my thoughts into the discussion.

Yes I know.
Still an interesting concept.

[player1]

Now, OK people.


Here is a Retro-CHALLENGE!

How it works:
You should think about changes in this MOD and give some valid reson why something needs to be changed back to original values (as in vanilla Civ3).

Then post some good resons why should in be done.

As a reward, if reson was good enough, I would revert that chnage to original values.

[Ismailov]

I have played your two mods (ptw version and original version) and I liked them so much! Very good work

I know your point of view with this mod is to be conservative (do not change things too much). I agree with you, as most times very radical mods are only interesting for those who developed them (they are the only ones who understand them). However, I'd like to propose some ideas.

1.- Powerful civilizations were always civilizations who had control over the trade environment, and most of times this environment was the water. Great rivers (Babylonian, Egypt) -> small seas (Greek) -> medium seas (Rome) -> oceans (Spanish, Portuguese, English, etc.). Only when railroad was developed, cargo trade by land was cheaper than cargo trade by sea. So, in ancient times, when two cities had to be connected, it was ALWAYS cheaper to build a harbour in each of them than building a road. However, in civ3 large empires are continental empires, with long trade roads! Should galleys and harbors be cheaper and appear before?

2.- In civ3, there is one only difference among goverments: you have "peace" goverments and "war" goverments. However, in CTP you had also "money" goverments (teocracy), "production" goverments (communism)... Besides, I think history is more funny if you have to change your goverments often... I know you changed communism working rate, but: Is there any (small) change to turn goverments more distinct and funny? Should anarchy be less restrictive?

[planetfall]

Originally posted by player1


Interesting, but makes Cavalry obsolete.
(and is more powerfull then treat all as roads since you get retreat ability)

Not since Cavalry has movement of 3 and ability to retreat.

For discussion see:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67352&highlight=guerilla

Consensus was to make following changes to guerilla:

movement: 2
added: no terrain movement handicap
added: invisible

Most wanted to keep A.D the same. I think it makes more sense to make A.D 6.4. Their power is not defense but running away. If they can't run away, they aren't guerrilas. Movement of 2 means they can hit and run 1 tile in same turn. A few wanted to give them the ability of all terrain as roads, but that is too unbalancing.

Changes needed to other units:
infantry: see invisible
mech: see invisible
cav: see invisible

NB: tanks/MA do not get to see them.

I'll take a look at rest of preference later. Skimmed your comments on civ3 and some make sense, others I am not decided on yet.

== PF

[player1]

If I was not making conservative MOD I would seriously think about something similar.
Now, the only question remaing how would AI handle that.

[player1]

Originally posted by Ismailov
1.- Powerful civilizations were always civilizations who had control over the trade environment, and most of times this environment was the water. Great rivers (Babylonian, Egypt) -> small seas (Greek) -> medium seas (Rome) -> oceans (Spanish, Portuguese, English, etc.). Only when railroad was developed, cargo trade by land was cheaper than cargo trade by sea. So, in ancient times, when two cities had to be connected, it was ALWAYS cheaper to build a harbour in each of them than building a road. However, in civ3 large empires are continental empires, with long trade roads! Should galleys and harbors be cheaper and appear before?

Harbors are already cheaper if you sue Militaristic civs.
Now if Glleys would be more cheaper and make available earlier(and personnly I think that they are cheap enough) would make some probelms.

First, other ships should be chepaer too, sicnce 20 shields for cheap galley would be better deal then Caravel (or maybe even Galley).
Second, it would make AI bad, since he would not realise how much galley are better. He would still try ro settle all the land before going to see, while human player would take all nice spots with quick galleys (3 move vs 1).

Originally posted by Ismailov 2.- In civ3, there is one only difference among goverments: you have "peace" goverments and "war" goverments. However, in CTP you had also "money" goverments (teocracy), "production" goverments (communism)... Besides, I think history is more funny if you have to change your goverments often... I know you changed communism working rate, but: Is there any (small) change to turn goverments more distinct and funny? Should anarchy be less restrictive?

It's difficult question to answer. There are not so many government parameters in Civ3 as in CTP . For example, most new user-made government made in these forums are pretty similar one to another so it's pretty difficult to make something distinctive.

And anarchy should stay anarchy.


P.S.
As for communism, it was mostly a flavor change.


P.P.S.
By the way, Ismailov,

Have you tested your city garphic MOD with new PtW buildings added (Stock Ex. and Commercial docks).
Do they all fit nicely with background tiles?

[Ismailov]

I made my own rules mod. I have not posted it in apolyton because it is so radical, and I understand it is interesting only for me. But there are some (radical) tricks to create new interesting goverments:

- Republic: Units: 2 gold/turn -> Public works and war very expensive. In modern times, it's a kind of socialdemocracy -> Unique building: Welfare state.
- Democracy: It's now a kind of capitalist democracy. No extra trade bonus: taxes minimized to favor the
private companies. But it has no mantanaince costs: all is made by private companies. Units: 2 g/t. Unique building: Corporate Branch. No +50 working rate.
- Communism: +50 woking rate. When you get railroad, if you want to industrialize fast, you will have to spend some turns in communism. It will be cheaper than using Republic and Democracy. Unique building: koltjos.
And so on...

So, it is difficult task to choose the goverments.
Each new unique building has special effects, and replaces the others. Special wonders for each goverment.

I made some other things: slave resources, mills, television, etc.

(Yes, I have used my city view mod with ptw, and it works good! I think I should post a ptw screenshot in the thread of my mod...)

[player1]

Interesting and unique govemenments.

But keep that thing playtested, in order to make fine balance.

And good MODing.

[Caliban]

Have you taken a look on the Beta Testers Mod (BTM) that is shipped with PTW? The changes they made for sea units are quite interesting.

I gave my destroyers and AEGIS cruisers a movement rate of 2, All Terrain As Roads and Blitz, but did not change their stats.

My Battleship now has an ADM of 24.16.5, making it very powerful in sea battle, but not as fast and versatile as cruisers and destroyers.

The carrier now has 3.10.5 and a transport capacity of 6.

Sub has 10.6.3 (Nuc. sub: 10.6.4) and Zone of Control.

Oh, and I allowed AEGIS cruisers to carry 4 cruise missiles. The AI did not use this yet, but maybe it will, I have to playtest a little more.

Just some thoughts...

[player1]

Yes, I've seen that.

Interesting, but not for this MOD.
(and would need a lot of tweaking to make it balanced)

P.S.
By the way, I find having Destoyers with speed of 7 (with Magellan) to be pretty fast units.
Although maybe that's just becasue I usualy play standard and small maps (never large or huge).

P.P.S.
BTM is pretty similar MOD to my own in its "don't chnage too much" moto.
Exept with naval unit movments. That's only radical change in that MOD.

[Caliban]

Hm... I always play huge maps, so ships with 9 movement points are just right for me...

[player1]

It would be best if Air and naval speed could be scaled based on map size.

[Caliban]

Yep, good idea. Impossible to raelize, as all ghood ideas.

[player1]

New version compatibile with 1.14f patch will be out soon.

In the meantime here is some teaser info:

Comments to changes in v1.1

MOD has been made compatible with new v1.14f PtW patch. This includes several fixes, like removing Frigate from England build list (was a bug), changing Spanish AI Wealth preference from build never to build often strategy, and adding load flags to all king units. Some things I already did in this MOD were also fixed in new patch (Bezerk and Hwacha upgrade paths and AI Explore flag for Keshik and Conquistador).

Cossaks get defense AI flag added. Cossaks had this flag in original Civ3, but it was removed in PtW. Still, since in this MOD Cossaks got defense rating increased to 5, I added that flag back too.

All king units get Airlift ability. Considering that now all king units have Load ability (which makes them transportable by ships), I think that having them Airlift ability should be allowed too. Leaders to fly by planes anyway.

[player1]

Soon --> tomorrow or in next several days