SCENARIO: Modern World (In Progress! Nitpickers needed!)

[sabrewolf]

this thread is getting off topic, but i just want to add my comment:

china in 20-30 years fully europeanized/westernized?
that's ridiculous!

culture and religion cannot just disappear. specially not without any powerful force behind it. examples:

- jews have constantly been followed and "genocided" for several thousand years... until 1945. somehow the jewish culture survived. and even without an artificial state, there still would be jews

- stalinism (and other soviet dictatorship phases) basicly made religion forbidden... but look at present day russia: many are highly religious.

- in paraguay the native language (guáranÃ) was forbidden to teach and speak during decades of dictatorship. but it still is used just as much as spanish in the population - not just in rural regions.

probably you could mention dozens of other examples. but the conclusion is: culture and religion don't just disappear in a few years...


that said, please get this thread back on-topic soon again. it would be a shame to have it moved to OT and all those post-counts removed

so my on-topic comment:

jaguar warrior:
after my big exam beginning of february, i'll have some time. maybe i could help you make a 140x140 version, if you agree...?!?

[Centauri18]

I don't think culture ever really disappears.

[Luk]

Sorry, I did a mistake. China will not need to be westernized, but it is in fact westernized now It is the fact that not only China, but all Asia (and World) are in deep cultural defensive, and ideas of democracy and individualism aare spreading and attacking more, more because of globalisation. And I do not know any examples of chinese culture penetrating Western Culture. Maybe in Slovakia you see Chinese culture And it is ridicolous to say Middle East countries are under influence of Chinese culture

European GDB in PPP are higher then American - just look on data

European Union are slowly, but steadly Uniting, and this process are faster then in United States in XVIII century

Chinese culture will not be destryed ofcourse, it will add a new dimension and new ethinc colority to European Civilization

And it is pathetic how easly European countries conquered China...

The big problem of all civilization (not only China) is that, that they develops many things, and good solutions, but... they are not expansionist.

And you can not stop globalism, globalism is a next step of Western culture... Of course there are protests about it in all over the world, but it is the act of defense of all other cultures, which can not win this race.

And Slovakia... I do not recognize this as Nation. It is ethnic group, but in was never a nation. It was rather an accident that Slovakian has their own country, like Belarussia

[trevor]

double post, sorry.

[trevor]

Whoa, Luk, what in the heck are you talking about?

Maybe in Slovakia you see Chinese culture And it is ridicolous to say Middle East countries are under
influence of Chinese culture

Last year my yearbook was done up with an overall "Chinese" theme. The cake that was cut at the Navy Ball had a Chinese inscriptionon it. A good friend got a Chinese translation of his name tatooed on his arm.

European Union are slowly, but steadly Uniting, and this process are faster then in
United States in XVIII century

Well that would make sense, seeing as we didn't win the revolution until 1781. Rather late in the 18th century, wouldn't you agree?

And it is pathetic how easly European countries conquered China...

Of course you neglect the fact that China was coming out of isolationism and under a corrupt government. BTW, isn't it pathetic how easily Germany conquered Poland in 1939?

And Slovakia... I do not recognize this as Nation. It is ethnic group, but in was never a nation. It was rather an accident that Slovakian has their own country, like Belarussia

You say this even though Poland was controlled by Prussia and Russia for so many years. My, my, a bit bigoted aren't we?

As a soon to be member of the US military (Annapolis '08), I hope that a war with China never happens because it would be a bloodbath on both sides. You could kiss the economic powerhouse Pacific Rim countries (S. Korea, Japan, Australia, Taiwan, I sure there are others but I can't think of any more) goodbye. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if it devolves into a nuke fight.

Back on topic... JW, I hope your exams are going well; ah glorious BCR's and ECR's. Looking forward to the scenario.

[Centauri18]

A Chinese war of expansion seems inevitable to me. The Chinese are encouraging the births of male babies, and discouraging female babies. What does a surplus in the male population mean? Simple - more soldiers.
Now I'm not sinophobic (is that the fight word?) or anything, but this has a precedent. In the days before the Crusades, large numbers of knights were just riding through Europe, killing whoever they felt like killing and such, and the Pope of the time decided to give them something to do. A war.
Germany built up its military in the late 1930's for the sake of expansion.
The potential situation in China does have historical precedents.
China could build an army a quarter of a billion strong quickly enough. And then... pity all the other countries in the region.
Historically speaking, communist countries tend to expand by swallowing other countries hold. Just look at all the expansionistic campaigns the Soviet Union went on. Look at the current situation.
I don't like the thought of a war with China any more than anybody else, but it seems to be the most likely situation in the years to come.
Japan would be gone. Korea would be wiped out. Thailand, Laos, Burma, Vietnam? Gone. Mongolia? Probably gone. India? Probably not, unless the Chinese were asking for a nuke fight (India and Pakistan both have nukes). Probably most of the former Soviet republics. Almost definitely Taiwan. They'd probably go through Australasia unless the rest of the world managed to stop them.
Well... let's just hope it never comes to that.
I'm pretty certain that Russia and India would be left out. Neither nation has the bomb. China would almost certainly go after Japan (I wouldn't be surprised if the memory of Nanking wasn't still fresh.)
They might even go after the Arabs, unless Sadaam is discovered to have nukes. With its population so concentrated, China can't afford a nuke fight.
But this is just my opinion. I'm planning on majoring in history, so I do a lot of studying.
Yes, China will be a force to be reckoned with in this century. I just hope that it never comes to war.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Luk and Centauri, you two are both way off base!

Look at China's ENTIRE history, and then look at the history of war itself.

True, the European powers sliced up China... but they weren't there long! And prior to that, numerous Chinese dynasties proved to be masters of trade, diplomacy, conquest, AND empire-building, long before any "European" state even emerged!

Most of the European states weer formed by barbarians, both German and Slavic, that swept out of the "northeast" and destroyed what civilization was there. Sure, in the latter half of the last millenium, they caught up, but look at them these days! Stripped of their power by a former COLONY! (USA)

As for China's war of expansion? I seriously doubt this is on the books. China is a highly rational country, and it's unlikely to provoke a serious war in the NUCLEAR age!

Besides, my friends, just as the world emerged from feudal estates into the "Westphalian" age of Nation-States, there is a LOT of evidence that we are... very slowly... entering the post-national age. I.e., the death of nations, and their replacement with GLOBAL bodies!

Will this reintroduce feudalism? Who knows? But it would be DAMN GREAT to have in Civ... though I have no idea how...

[Luk]

It is pathetic how easly Germany conquered Poland, but I never said that Poland, and Polish culture and civilization are better then Germany.

China always were isiolationist. China never tried to move outside Asia, and that is why China, and all other civilization will never become international Superpowers, because their atractivnes, and expansion is not as great, as European

I say I do not recognize Belarussia and Slovakia as the nations, because they did never had a country before XX century... Poland has a long tradition of independant country for over 800 years

China, and USA will never fight a real world... There will be never a military conflict between strong countries in post-WWII era because it is irrational, because of WMD, and many other things. The Imperium in this times is the country which is stron internally, and can influence others by culture, ideas, economic etc. China are developing, and will be developing only when accept Euro-atlantic ideas, traditions, and vision of economy.

The number of people is not important, more important is a civilisation aspects, like ideas, culture, economy etc. China is modernizing because they are accepting the Euro-Atlantic order

Look on Taiwan, and on Communist China before China started to cooperate with Western countries and modernizing in european style... It is now a big hole in the development, economy etc between this two countries. Why, because Taiwan from the beginning is under our civilization influence

Europe as the only Nation had expansionist policy in mor then one-continent way. Europe from the Hellenic Empire, Roman Empire, Crusades, Columb, and finally to the Euro-centristic order in XIX and XX century proved that only we have the will to be Superpower in every aspects of live

Yes, we are entering in post-nation era, where the euro-atlantic globalisation will be the ideology for the next century. China, and all other countries could not stop it and offer any alternative. They will be a part of our civlization. And I think China people will be happy in this era, because they will be rich and content from this Euro-Atlantic Order.

And America is a specific colony, as American are the Europeans de facto

[sabrewolf]

sorry, but not just european civs had pan-continental expansion.
the arabs controlled most of the middle east (asia), northern africa and even got to europe (spain).
the mongols conquered most of asia and reached europe too.
and if it weren't for even more powerful civilisations, the ancient egyptians would have got the middle east too...

now what would have happened if the chinese would have had an overcrowded continent like europe and would discover america? yes: they'd colonise america like the spanish and then other europeans did. just china didn't have the need to expand because of the great distances between the borders.

[Jaguar]

I don't know how my thread got so off topic...

All navies are placed! I represented ships on an exponential scale of sorts. For example, if the US has 50 of a ship, India has 15, and Venezuela has 2 in RL, I would give US 30, India 13, and Venezuela 2. So the more you have, the more I take away. (Kinda like tax brackets.) I've decided not to include frigates, (some countries have like 100) but if enough fans ask for them, I'll put them in.

[Centauri18]

Is the Space Race part of this MOD? because I have a couple ideas about that, laid out in the Small Wonders Ideas thread, if you're interested.

[trevor]

Cool, can't wait until the scenario is downloadable. How did you do on your exams?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

AAARGH, it is so tempting to wander off-topic and respond to those ludicrous posts on expansion, colonization, and globalization...

...but I won't. That would be wrong.

How're the Civs looking at this point? Any thought as to the "five blocs" (Mediterrean, Asian, etc.)... going to alter those I assume?

[Samiel]

he yo cool Ideas truly. But one thing empty to America and i have piece of the puzzel.
You need the Worldtradecenter to tribute the dead people
and i have on image for the city zoom , you must see that.
The Civ building is'nt create
Look The picture:

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Nice, but where's the needle?

I've been living in NYC for 5 years... trust me, the needle was the best part.