Comparison OCC Game

[razzor7]

Geez, i guess i'm doing something wrong, but i JUST CAN'T KEEP UP IN TECHS!!! I'm playing form the COpes save, but i'm having no luck *sigh*

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by razzor7
Geez, i guess i'm doing something wrong, but i JUST CAN'T KEEP UP IN TECHS!!! I'm playing form the COpes save, but i'm having no luck *sigh*

Razzor7, take a look at my next couple of posts. I'm going to include my log from Copes to Newts. In order to keep up tech-wise between Copes and Newts, you often have to buy techs...and trade freely.

In this game, I bought Chemistry 8 turns after building Copes, traded it around to get Banking, renew some Luxury deals, and snag a little gold.

I then researched Physics and Theory of Gravity on my own, used Physics to get Metallurgy and Democracy, and ToG to get Military Tradition, Economics, and Free Artistry.

To leave the Middle Ages, I bought Magnetism. My scientific freebie for entering the Industrial Age (Steam Power) propelled me on my way to Theory of Evolution.

More soon.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Building Newton's University: Log

Middle Ages Turn Log: (contd)

0380AD: Disband two Warriors.
0390AD: Germany builds Sistine Chapel. Hoplite.
0400AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
0410AD: Building Wealth. Size 12 again.

=====================

0450AD: Bought Chemistry from France for 648 gold.

Traded Chemistry and 40 gold to Russia for Banking, Wines, and Incense.
Traded Chemistry to Carthage for Music Theory, World Map, 24 gpt, and 28 gold.
Traded Banking around for 1 gpt and 86 gold.
Gave away Music Theory and Chemistry until everyone was equal.

Japanese build Leonardo’s Workshop.

0460AD: Worker.
0470AD: Bought Worker from France for 104 gold. French build JS Bach’s. Size 12 again.

Note: With the French building JS Bach’s, there are no big pre-builds out there that can get to Newton’s before I do. I’ll have to watch for when my rivals start building Magellan’s and Smith’s, but I expect the AI to head for Military Tradition first which means I should get a jump on Newt’s.

Note: I’ve decided to keep Bank as my pre-build for Newton’s. That means wasting a few shields right now, but it should pay off long-term.

0490AD: Hoplite.
0510AD: Worker.
0520AD: Size 12 again.
0550AD: Worker.
0560AD: Bought Silks from Carthage for 21 gold. Bought Gems and Dyes from France for 124 gold. Size 12 again.

=====================

0570AD: Researched Physics.

Traded Physics to Carthage for Democracy, Metallurgy, and World Map.
Traded Democracy to Germany for Navigation and 16 gold.
Sold Democracy to Zulu for 6 gold.
Sold Democracy to Japan for 2 gpt and 45 gold.
Sold Physics to Russia for Iron, 25 gpt, and 47 gold.
Sold Physics to France for Saltpeter, Horses, 20 gpt, and 53 gold.
Sold Physics to Arabia for 10 gpt and 13 gold.
Gave Metallurgy and Physics to Zulu and Japan.
Gave Physics to Germany.

0600AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
0620AD: Bought Worker from Carthage for 108 gold. Tribute to France.
0650AD: Bought Incense and Wines from Russia for 120 gold.

=====================

0700AD: Bought Worker from France for 105 gold. Researched Theory of Gravity.

Traded Theory of Gravity to Germany for Military Tradition, World Map, and 5 gold.
Traded Military Tradition to Zulu for Economics and 12 gold.
Sold Military Tradition to Arabia for 1 gold.
Traded Theory of Gravity to Japan for Free Artistry and World Map.
Sold Theory of Gravity to Carthage for 17 gpt and 50 gold.
Gave Free Artistry and Theory of Gravity to Zulu and Arabia.

0720AD: Bought Worker from Russia for 120 gold. Bought two Workers from Germany for 230 gold.

=====================

0760AD: Bought Magnetism and Silks from Carthage for 465 gold. Steam Power is my freebie.

Traded Steam Power to Germany for Medicine, World Map, 67 gpt and 130 gold.
Traded Steam Power to France for Gems, Dyes, 23 gpt, and 120 gold.
Traded Steam Power to Russia for World Map, 27 gpt and 57 gold.
Sold Magnetism to Arabia for 8 gpt and 30 gold.
Sold Magnetism to Zulu for 6 gold.
Gave Steam Power to Zulu and Japanese.
Sold Steam Power to Carthage for World Map, 31 gpt, and 530 gold.
Gave Steam Power to Arabia.

0760AD: (contd) Newton’s University.

[ToeTruck]

570AD: Turn before Physics

Here's the save from 570 AD:

[ToeTruck]

700AD: Turn before Theory of Gravity

Here's the save from 700 AD:

[ToeTruck]

760AD: Turn before Newton's University

Here's the save from 760 AD:

(BTW - If you use this save, you will probably want to change research from Nationalism to Sanitation)

[ToeTruck]

Building Newton's University: Comments

The biggest thing I concentrated on was absolutely cranking the overall tech rate.

With the exception of Invention and Gunpowder, I bought a tech from my rival as soon as it was available. Even in those two cases, I didn't wait very long which would have allowed the AI to get too far ahead in tech.

And, as soon as I bought the tech, I traded or gave it away. The way I play, I want to build Copes by 400 AD, Newts by 900 AD, and ToE by 1250 AD.

The one tricky part of trading tech so ferociously is that you really have to think about your pre-builds. You have to gauge the rate at which your nearest rival is researching so that you can accurately estimate how long it will take for a given tech to become available.

The city position in this game was very helpful because of the excellent mix of shields and commerce. By re-arranging which tiles were being worked, I could easily optimize shields *or* commerce. It was great!

- TT

[Arrian]

TT - question: why is pushing the research rate so important to you?

I remember OCC threads from CivII where people were aiming at "earliest SS launch" (which blew my mind - some of those games were truely amazing), and in that context it makes sense, but in CivIII I don't really get it.

I did everything I could in my game to slow the tech rate down...

-Arrian

p.s. Now that I think about it, the first save I posted may or may not be the 4000bc save... oops. If it isn't, I can fix that when I get back from Chicago on Monday (to the extent that anyone cares).

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by Arrian
TT - question: why is pushing the research rate so important to you?

That's a good question...I'll have to think about that a bit to be sure but here's an answer I have right now.

My first thought is that I played a bunch of Civ2 OCC so I'm a little biased by that experience. It's hard to shake those habits and it's how I measure the quality of a given OCC victory. If a space launch is good, an earlier launch must be better, right?

To that end, free trading and cranking the global research rate means early entry into Modern Times, early SS parts, and earlier launches. That part makes sense.

More practically, though, I figure that the main advantage an OCC'er has is that he only has to build stuff for one city. So, why give the AI time to develop his infrastsructure?

I can afford to give away things like Education, Banking, and Sanitation. Afterall, I'm only going to be building one of each improvement. The AI has to build dozens. Meanwhile, I get the advantage of the AI doing my research for me. I want the AI to be researching techs he really isn't ready to use yet. I want him swimming in advanced (but useless) technology.

The AI seems to play like it has some built-in "build schedule". I haven't confirmed this in any way, but it appears that the AI won't even consider building SS Parts (for example) until it reaches some level of "infrastructure maturity". I have little evidence in support, but it appears that way to me.

Also, whenever I slow down the global tech rate, I find myself twiddling my thumbs buiding Wealth or a bunch of units. Even if I can snag an extra Wonder or two, I ask myself "what's the gain"? Wouldn't those 400 shields have been better used for something else. Even the Sistine Chapel is only worth a single Luxury. And at 50 gold every 20 turns, Luxuries are far cheaper than happy-Wonders.

Lastly, I find that slowing the game down often leads to the killer AI situation. Once a civ gets big, there's absolutely nothing a single city civ can do about it.

So...instead I choose to ride the wave.

- TT

[Arrian]

I can afford to give away things like Education, Banking, and Sanitation. Afterall, I'm only going to be building one of each improvement. The AI has to build dozens. Meanwhile, I get the advantage of the AI doing my research for me. I want the AI to be researching techs he really isn't ready to use yet. I want him swimming in advanced (but useless) technology.

I avoided selling Lit, Education and Republic - I don't recall selling any of those to the leaders. Once I see that any had it, I would sell it on to the rest (but again, only if they could pay me something for it). The AI had Theology/Feud/Eng/Inv/Chiv before they got to Literature, IIRC.

I did sell Sanitation, but only because I could drain a huge amount of gpt away from the best AIs. Even then it might have been a mistake not to hold that too. The AI does poorly at setting up its terrain for production, because of over-irrigation. What that translates to, however, is very large AI cities once they get Sanitation (especially considering the reeeeeallly wide AI city spacing in Conquests). That really increases their commerce output.

Sure, the AI has to build 10 or 15 libraries to my one. But they get the effects of those libraries, and I only my one. If I build my library thousands of years before they do, so much the better. If the AI lacks improvements to build b/c of lack of advanced tech, it builds UNITS. Even with some free unit support, it's gotta pay for those units. Further, it will tend to use the units by picking fights. So long as the fight isn't with me, it's to my benifit, usually.

Even though my game gave rise to a KAI, it was to my benifit that Russia spend the ancient & medieval era fighting and destroying the Celts and Ottomans. The AI doesn't take advantage of a big empire the way I would. I investigated a size 14 city right next to mine late in the game. It was "producing" 3 shields per turn.

-Arrian

p.s. I occurs to me that my game differs from yours in more than just difficulty level... yours was PtW, mine was Conquests. The AI, IMO, is more inept in Conquests.

[alexman]

I would think that slowing the tech rate is good for an OCC. I did it on purpose in my game, above. You can get more Wonders that way, because you break more cascades.

Also, think it's good if you get some wars and some civs get eliminated. Besides less competition for Wonders, you are more likely to research a tech first and sell it to the killer AIs for lots of gpt.

[Arrian]

Yup, that's the strategy I followed, and it worked fantastically well (granted, it was on Monarch). I mean, I built Leos, for goodness sake! And KT, and the Sistine!

Alexman - any idea what the AI does with SGLs? I noticed in the replay that there were 4 SGLs generated by the AI. In only once case might it have been used on a wonder (the Oracle, by Spain, but frankly it's possible they were building the Oracle anyway. 1075 bc isn't an especially odd completion date for the Oracle on Monarch).

-Arrian

[alexman]

Originally posted by Arrian
Alexman - any idea what the AI does with SGLs?

As far as I know they get used properly. However, if there is no Wonder available to build, I doubt the AI is smart enough to save them, so it builds a city improvement instead.

Perhaps the AI tries to use the leader in the same turn he's created. If he can't reach a Wonder-building city, he ends up rushing a city improvement. Just guessing.

[alexman]

Here's another guess, which I hope is false: The AI uses a SGL to rush whatever is being built in its capital, where the leader appears!

[vmxa1]

What about Age of Science? Do you think they would use one for that?