Comparison OCC Game

[alexman]

It's possible, but somehow I doubt it.

During some tests I did for flavors a while back, the AI would always use SGLs to rush what they were building. Granted, those tests were not a normal game situation, but still...

Since MGLs are used by the AI for rushing but not for Armies, it's not inconceivable that SLGs might be used in the same way.

[Arrian]

That would be bad - rushing whatever is being built in the capital.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the MGL the Russians generated - killing one of my crusaders and the several MGLs the other civs got... all used to rush improvements, eh? Obviously, with one city, I'd no way of knowing what civs other than Russia did with their MGLs.

That MGL Russia got off my unit really pissed me off. I take pride in my leader-generation abilities, and of course trying to deny same to the AI. But, since they just waste 'em anyway, I guess it's no skin off my nose.

-Arrian

[ToeTruck]

Sure, the AI has to build 10 or 15 libraries to my one. But they get the effects of those libraries, and I only my one. If I build my library thousands of years before they do, so much the better. If the AI lacks improvements to build b/c of lack of advanced tech, it builds UNITS. Even with some free unit support, it's gotta pay for those units.

My difficulty with trying to slow things down stems from the fact that I just can't slow them down enough!

It always seems that at least one rival will grow to killer size and will either win through domination or out-pace me in tech.

The difficulty I have with lots of warring is that Luxuries often get disconnected from the trade network and having only one city, I don't have a big network for the AI to connect to. Plus, if my border is completely with a single rival (as it often is under OCC), it is very easy for me to be completely disconnected from the trade network.

What strategies did you use to slow the AI down? Alexman described using a "safe war" and you can obviously hold back tech. Anything else?

- TT

[Arrian]

Well, in my game, there were two long-running wars. One was safe, being on the other continent. The other involved some danger, since the Russians were on my continent, but they did have to get through two others civs to get to me (Celts, Ottomans).

Having near-constant wars on both continents definitely slowed things down. It also provided me with a happiness boost from reverse war-weariness as a republic (when the AI declares war on YOU, you get the happiness boost. If there is no actual combat... it stays).

EDIT: another thing is contacts. I held off giving contact between the two continents as long as I could. The mistake I made was researching Printing Press too soon, because one I had that, civs could demand contact as tribute. Hence, once the Russians had taken over the continent and ordered me to cough up contact with Spain, I had to comply. That irritated me.

By the way, the AI is TERRIBLE at getting to domination. Russia took over the continent, which put them at about 50% of the land area and more of the population. They didn't need much more to win. But the AI isn't coded to go after that win condition. I would only think it's a danger on a Pangea map.

As to the luxury thing... well, I hardly ever got luxuries via trade. They were an afterthought. The slow tech pace allowed me to build the Sistine and Shakespears.

My size 20 city could stay out of disorder w/o any luxury imports, IIRC. In fact, I may have been able to trade away my one source of silks and still been ok.

Imagine if I'd nabbed Mausollos or the HG!

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by alexman
It's possible, but somehow I doubt it.

During some tests I did for flavors a while back, the AI would always use SGLs to rush what they were building. Granted, those tests were not a normal game situation, but still...

Since MGLs are used by the AI for rushing but not for Armies, it's not inconceivable that SLGs might be used in the same way.

That is about what I would expect, used for rushing only. I was just wondering if you had seen any evidence to the contrary. Does not sound like you did.

[ToeTruck]

By the way, the AI is TERRIBLE at getting to domination. Russia took over the continent, which put them at about 50% of the land area and more of the population. They didn't need much more to win. But the AI isn't coded to go after that win condition. I would only think it's a danger on a Pangea map.

That's definitely true when playing non-OCC games, but the AI does a lot better when the only intelligent player is restricted to a single city. Also, I play almost all my OCC games on Pangaea so a killer civ has a decent chance of dominating the map once it gets going.

And, I agree with one of your posts a bit back that the AI is a more inept in Conquests than it was with PTW.

My size 20 city could stay out of disorder w/o any luxury imports, IIRC. In fact, I may have been able to trade away my one source of silks and still been ok.

Imagine if I'd nabbed Mausollos or the HG!

I've played a couple of Culture win OCC games with a ton of Wonders. They're a ton of fun to play aren't they?

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Building Theory of Evolution: Log

Industrial Ages Turn Log:

0770AD: Traded Medicine to Japan for Iron, Horses, World Map and 2 gold.
0800AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
0810AD: Tribute to Russia.
0830AD: Bank.
0850AD: Bought Incense and Wines from Russia for 120 gold.
0860AD: Japanese build Magellan’s Voyage.
0870AD: Traded Medicine to Zulu for World Map, 20 gpt, and 36 gold. Traded Medicine to Arabia for 2 gpt and 70 gold. French build Smith’s Trading Company. Germany builds Shakespeare’s Theater.
0880AD: Bought Coal from Russia for 118 gold. Galleon. (I was using Wonders as a pre-build for Hospital).
0900AD: Disbanded Hoplite for shields. Researched Sanitation.

Traded Sanitation to France for 118 gpt and 25 gold.
Traded Sanitation to Japan for Saltpeter, World Map, 22 gpt, and 91 gold.
Sold Sanitation to Carthage for World Map and 19 gpt.
Sold Sanitation to Arabia for 23 gold. Gave Sanitation to Germany.
Sold Sanitation to Zulu for 4 gpt and 16 gold.
Gave Sanitation to Russia.

Rushed Hospital for 472 gold.

0910AD: Building Wealth. Size 13.
0950AD: Size 14.
0960AD: Bought Silks from Carthage for 21 gold. Bought Gems and Dyes from France for 124 gold.
0970AD: Bought Iron from Japan for 280 gold.
0980AD: Size 15.
1000AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
1010AD: Size 16.
1030AD: Carthage has Industrialization. Using Ironclad as pre-build for Universal Suffrage which will be pre-build for Theory of Evolution. Or maybe just Factory.
1050AD: Bought Incense and Wines from Russia for 114 gold. Size 17.
1060AD: Researched Electricity.

Traded Electricity to Germany for Industrialization, World Map, 175 gold and 8 gpt.
Sold Electricity to Carthage for 85 gpt and 86 gold.
Sold Electricity to Russia for World Map, 65 gpt and 8 gold.
Traded Electricity and Industrialization to Arabia for Nationalism, World Map, 8 gpt, and 6 gold. Sold Electricity to Zulu for 8 gpt and 8 gold.
Gave Industrialization to Zulu. Sold Electricity to Japan for Horses, World Map, 4 gpt, and 110 gold.
Gave Industrialization to Japan.

Rushed Factory for 696 gold.

1070AD: Disbanded Galleon for shields. Rushed Coal Plant for 580 gold.
1090AD: Size 18.
1100AD: Joined two German Workers to make size 20.
1110AD: Joined one Arabic Worker to make size 21.

Note: Producing 72 shields and 320 commerce per turn with size 21 city. (1 shield and 2 commerce lost to corruption).

Note: Universal Suffrage is an excellent pre-build for Theory of Evolution because US requires 800 shields while ToE requires 600 shields. I will research Scientific Method in 6 turns and build Universal Suffrage in 9 so I can trade away Scientific Method as soon as I get it without risking ToE to my rivals.

Note: France has Replaceable Parts. Yum.

1160AD: Bought Silks from Carthage for 21 gold. Bought Dyes and Gems from France for 124 gold.

Note: This will be a big turn. Need a drink of water before hitting Enter.

1160AD: (contd) Researched Scientific Method.

Traded Scientific Method to Carthage for Replaceable Parts, World Map, 35 gpt, and 43 gold.
Traded Replaceable Parts to Germany for Espionage, World Map, 10 gpt, and 20 gold.
Traded Replaceable Parts and Espionage to Japan for Saltpeter, Communism and 1 gold.
Traded Replaceable Parts to Zulu and Arabia for 1 gold each.
Sold Scientific Method to France for Rubber, Coal, World Map and 150 gold.
Sold Scientific Method to Germany for 3 gold. Sold Scientific Method to Russia for 1 gold.
Gave Scientific Method to Japan.
Gave Scientific Method and Communism to Zulu.
Gave Scientific Method and Espionage to Arabia.

Note: Take a breath.

1160AD: (contd) Theory of Evolution.

Atomic Theory and Electronics are the freebies.
Sold Atomic Theory to France for 301 gpt and 448 gold.
Gave Atomic Theory to Russia, Carthage, Germany, Japan, Zulu, and Arabia.
Researching Radio.

[ToeTruck]

1150AD: Turn before Scientific Method

Here's the save from 1150AD before researching Scientific Method:

[ToeTruck]

1180AD: Turn after Theory of Evolution

Here's the save from 1180 AD, the turn after building Theory of Evolution:

[The Hack]

Toe Truck
Hi, find your threads interesting. Thinking of trying a OCC game but curious about one thing. Do you avoid giving gpt deals to rivals to protect your reputation, because the trade route might be disrupted?

[vmxa1]

I would think that it is also to avoid offering them the idea of declaring war to save making the payments.

[alexman]

Well gpt payments don't need a trade route. It's only resources that need that.

Further, you don't get a rep hit if you are the one receiving a resource and the trade route gets cut. You get one only if you are the one supplying the resource.

[ToeTruck]

I do sometimes trade away Horses or Iron for big gold or I sometimes can trade my single luxury for two of a rivals. But I never really worry about my rep hit if I get disconnected. It does sometimes happen, but I don't think the penalty is that extreme.

BTW - There is a thread that describes reputation factors in detail (thanks vmxa1 and bamspeedy):

Nice guys finish last

- TT

[ToeTruck]

On the way to SETI: Log

Well...something nasty happen on the way to SETI. Russia beat me there!

Here's the log from 1180AD to 1435AD when Russia built SETI. I scrambled enough to build the United Nations in 1450AD instead. I had to kick out over 21,000 gold for Fission, but it was necessary (I could have stole it but didn't)

I could have gotten a diplomatic victory at that point, but I trudged on towards a spacerace victory.

Industrial Age Turn Log (contd)

1200AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.

Traded Electronics to Germany for The Corporation, World Map, and 15 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Carthage for Iron, 18 gpt, and 49 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Russia for World Map and 19 gold.
Sold The Corporation to France for World Map and 90 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Arabia for World Map, 9 gpt, and 16 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Zulu for 8 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Japan for 7 gpt and 17 gold.

1220AD: French build Universal Suffrage.
1250AD: Sold Electronics to Russia for Incense, Wines, World Map, 38 gpt, and 78 gold.
1255AD: Sold Electronics to Arabia for World Map, 19 gpt, and 52 gold.

Sold Electronics to Zulu for 15 gpt and 51 gold.
Sold Electronics to Japan for Horses, 13 gpt, and 47 gold.

1265AD: Hoover Dam.
1280AD: Stock Exchange.
1295AD: Researched Radio.

Traded Radio to Carthage for Steel, World Map, and 23 gpt.
Sold Steel to Japan for 47 gpt and 69 gold.
Sold Steel to Zulu for World Map, 19 gpt, and 15 gold.
Sold Steel to Arabia for World Map, 24 gpt, and 14 gold.
Sold Radio to Germany for World Map and 91 gpt.
Gave Radio to Arabia, Zulu, and Japan.

Police Station.

1300AD: Worker. Discovered Coal!
1305AD: Bought Silks and Refining from Carthage for 2250 gold.

Bought Gems, Dyes, and Rubber from France for 220 gold.
Sold Refining to Arabia for World Map, 48 gpt, and 51 gold.
Sold Refining to Zulu for 22 gpt, and 59 gold.
Sold Refining to Japan for Saltpeter, World Map, 16 gpt, and 35 gold. Size 21 again.

1325AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
1335AD: Bought Combustion from France for 1540 gold.

Sold Combustion to Japan for Iron, World Map, 24 gpt, and 95 gold.
Sold Combustion to Russia for 23 gpt and 56 gold.
Sold Combustion to Carthage for World Map, 3 gpt, and 236 gold.
Sold Combustion to Zulu for World Map, 7 gpt, and 70 gold.
Sold Combustion to Arabia for World Map, 31 gpt, and 54 gold.

1350AD: Bought Incense and Wines from Russia for 115 gold.
1365AD: Bought Mass Production from France for 2770 gold.

Sold Mass Production to Russia for Horses, World Map, 40 gpt, and 66 gold.
Sold Mass Production to Carthage for World Map, 84 gpt, and 105 gold.
Sold Mass Production to Arabia for World Map, 50 gpt, and 34 gold.
Sold Mass Production to Zulu for World Map, 27 gpt, 120 gold, and one Worker.
Sold Mass Production to Japan for World Map, 24 gpt, and 108 gold.
Gave Mass Production to Germany.

Note: At 16060 gold with 581 coming in per turn. That should get me well into the Modern Age if I need it.

1385AD: Bought Motorized Transport from France for 3670 gold.

Sold Motorized Transportation to Arabia for World Map, 8 gpt, and 57 gold.
Sold Motorized Transportation to Zulu for World Map, 18 gpt, and 75 gold.
Sold Motorized Transportation to Japan for World Map, 12 gpt, and 128 gold.
Gave Motorized Transportation to Germany.
Sold Motorized Transportation to Carthage for World Map and 17 gold.
Sold Motorized Transportation to Russia for World Map and 48 gold.

1395AD: Bought Flight from France for 2250 gold. Computers was my freebie!

Sold Flight to Arabia for World Map, 18 gpt, and 13 gold.
Sold Flight to Zulu for World Map, 10 gpt, and 15 gold.
Sold Flight to Japan for World Map, 18 gpt, and 20 gold.
Traded Computers to Germany for Amphibious Warfare, Ecology, World Map, and 150 gpt.
Traded Ecology to France for Rocketry, World Map, and 970 gold.
Traded Ecology to Carthage for World Map and Aluminum.
Sold Computers to Russia for 7770 gold.
Sold Computers to France for 1280 gold.
Sold Ecology to Japan for World Map, 33 gpt, and 2 gold.
Gave Ecology to Zulu. Gave Ecology to Arabia.
Gave Amphibious Warfare to Zulu, Arabia, and Japan.

1405AD: Sold Computers to Carthage for Silks, World Map, 37 gpt, and 110 gold.

Bought Gems, Dyes, and Rubber from France for 380 gold.
Sold Rocketry to Arabia for Ivory, World Map, 35 gpt, and 20 gold.
Sold Rocketry to Zulu for World Map, 37 gpt, and 20 gold.
Sold Rocketry to Japan for Saltpeter, World Map, 21 gpt, and 20 gold.

Modern Times Turn Log:

1425AD: Bought Spices from France for 90 gold.
1435AD: Russia builds SETI.

1440AD: Buy Fission from France for 21750 gold.

Sold Fission to Russia for Iron, World Map, 171 gpt, and 190 gold.
Sold Fission to Germany for World Map, 262 gpt, and 230 gold.
Sold Computers to Japan for World Map and 97 gold.
Sold Computers to Zulu for World Map, 10 gpt, and 21 gold.
Gave Computers to Arabia.

1450AD: Bought Wines and Incense from Russia for 120 gold.

Sold Fission to Japan for World Map, 43 gpt, and 56 gold.

United Nations.

[ToeTruck]

1450AD: Turn before United Nations

Here's the save from 1450AD, the turn before I built United Nations.

I didn't try for a vote my first time through, but after finishing the space race, I loaded up this save just to prove a Diplomatic Victory was also possible.