C3C : Strategic Resources Scarcity Sucks!

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by vmxa1
It is not resources I am short of, it is luxs. I have had two games in a row where I only had two on the whole contient in a two contient game.

It makes those markets nearly useless. Once in a while I can get a lux or two in a trade, but them it expires and its get out the fire hoses.

Which is why I like one ideas forwarded in the "Civ 4" forum (General/Future) about variable levels of luxuries and resources.

It's basically that instead of every instance of a resource being "1" a value is assigned to an instance of a resource. Perhaps a scale of 1-100. A formula would need to be worked out to scale the level of your resource/luxury to the effect. For example, "20" iron would allow 5 military units needing iron.

I think it's a good idea that would solve this resource inequity/deficiency with a side benefit of permitting greater sophistication in trade - both benefits for the peaceful builder.

[Cerbykins]

Curious, Curious...

One unforeseen consequence of the resource scarcity in C3C is that it can render certain UU's useless.

Actually, that brings to mind something else. UU's based on needing less resouces rather than being stronger, like the Indian War Elephant (AFAIK) now also become more meaningful.

Oh, (afternote) and if peaceful builder is ever to become a big thing, then there has to be some kind of score value in following that path. Right now, 'doing the right thing' and 'being a good guy' pays you nothing, only the territory and pop you can accumulate. And future tech, but there - who cares?
Might already be in that forum. If so ignore me...the first paragraph was my main point

[Cort Haus]

Yes, I'm going to start playing India - it might be the only Civ in the box that suits my playstyle.

I'm currently playing the Mongols with no horses. I have a modest 90 tile island next to 800+ tile continent with four starting civs. It's 1010AD and there will soon be one civ (Aztecs with SoZ).

Five civs got three horses between them, and one saltpeter.

One Saltpeter between five civs. What a joke.

[justjake73]

I have one Wine and one Spice, one Iron in my territory and there is one on a peninsula. I built a road and planted a colony so I could trade SOMETHING. My SP went poof, but the Celts had NO Iron in their entire country - so no UU, no Knights or Pikemen - but they have THREE saltpeter!! I had to wait until they discovered Gunpowder then they were EAGER to trade!!

[Donegeal]

Hell, instead of waiting for them to discover it, clean their clock. After all, they are just sitting there asking to get killed off with just spearmen and Archers.....

[steven8r]

The Ol' "Settler Sneak"

Here's a trick that I shamlessly used in a previous game. Monarch, Spanish, Standard. I had no Coal and found-out later that I had no Rubber or Aluminum--perhaps some others. At the time I was mostly interested in Coal. I'd been peaceful the entire game.

I waited until 2 of my neighbors got into it. Everytime the Koreans took an Arab city, instant Culture Hole. I sent-in Settlers to the available areas (w/ Resources) and was able to snag what I needed.

Sure, my new cities were corrupt, but at least they were getting me the needed resource(s) and some luxes too. I knew that it was just a matter of time before the Korean Culture 'took back the gaps' so Colonies weren't an option and w/ some Temples and Libraries, my cities weren't likely to flip too soon.

Later in the game, the Hittites were sacking the Sumerians (who'd already exterminated the Inca) and they were close to their OCN so were razing all the Sumerian cites. Again with the Spanish Settler Sneak.

I managed to pull-out a Space Race Victory in spite of having almost none of the Industrial/Modern Resources.

Steven

[Aqualung71]

I have to agree with Catt and MrWhereItsAt....while scarcer strategic recources at first glance makes the game tougher, in the long term it only hurts the AI more. The human player knows he MUST have those resources and will resolve to build enough of whatever military units he has available to capture a certain resource by force (be it Saltpeter for Cavalry, Iron/Coal for RR or Rubber for Infantry). The AI does not have such resolve and persistence.

Scarcer luxuries is a different issue. This definitely makes it harder for the human player, who usually favours Republic/Democracy which often require almost all luxuries in mid to late game to keep the citizens happy. In the AI's preferred warring governments of Communism and possibly now Fascism, happiness luxuries are not so important. So, there may be a tendency here for the human empire builder to be a little more considerate of his AI trading partners. And remember, once you ruin that reputation by instigating wars it can be pretty hard to trade for luxuries!

I've also seen some interesting stuff on the Civ4 threads along the lines of incorporating "quantities" of resources into the economic model. That is, in the current model it matters not whether you have 1 coal or 10 coal (except for your increased ability to trade it). An interesting proposal is to require a certain resource level to build a factory, to RR a tile, etc. You then need to keep track of how much of a certain resource you have, and at what rate you are using it. And in the context of a scarcer resource world, you will then need to make more strategic choices about how many factories to build, how many tiles to RR (ie, connect all your cities, or completely RR an entire supercity, but you can't afford to do both), and perhaps you may even only have enough aluminium to build 30 MA without finding some more.

Now THAT would make it more interesting.....as long as the programmers can improve the AI enough to make it cope with this concept.

[justjake73]

woops double post

[justjake73]

I was wrong...Egypt has 2, which means Egypts best friend will be a third industrial power.

[justjake73]

Only two *&%$# rubber in the entire %$@#& world and of course I have NONE. This game is starting to $^#&&# SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cerbykins]

Stay calm. You got the fatal bombard bombers option, right? (well, a bit later on)
They don't need rubber....right?

[justjake73]

I quit that game. I can't build Tanks, Infantry or Guerillas without it, and I would have gotten my @ss handed to me!!!! The game has turned from fun to aggravating.

I just complained to Firaxis about this. I await their response.

[Risa]

Stay calm. Guerilla doesn't need resources.

The same as Artillery.

And you can biuld bombers later (if you have oil). They are MONSTERS.

[:) Smiley]

Speaking of bombers, one of my favorite uses with them is to bomb the roads on strategic resources in AI territory. Before long they're running out of tanks and sending out cavalry.

Settler Sneak can also be done on the short range. Sometimes a resource is just one square outside my border. I build a city next to it, and suddenly that coalfield is under my control. The AI doesn't seem to get mad. If they had pulled something on me, there'd be war on the way.

On Coal and Railroads... when was the last time you saw a steam locomotive? That strategic requirement ought to be replaceable by either Oil, or the discovery of Electricity.

[justjake73]

I went to the editor and changed all strategic resources to appear in the same ratio as Horses. I used that to generate a map and every one has started in a decent distance from Luxuries.

On Coal and Railroads... when was the last time you saw a steam locomotive? That strategic requirement ought to be replaceable by either Oil, or the discovery of Electricity.

There should be a Synthetic Rubber tech too.