Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Armies DO Have Combat Bonus!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Armies DO Have Combat Bonus!

    I decided to quickly test whether or not C3C armies enjoy any combat bonuses, as mentioned in the strategy guide on the Bonus CD and also referenced by a few beta testers.

    Short answer: They do!

    Longer answer: I only tested armies on offense, and only tested whether or not they enjoy the base 1/6 bonus refenced, not the 1/4 bonus with the construction of the Military Academy.

    How does the 1/6 base bonus work? You add the raw attack values of all the constituent units. You divide the total attack values by 6, and round down the result (or so it has been stated elsewhere). The rounded result is added to the army's attack value for purposes of combat resolution. For example, an army composed of 3 knights would have an effective "attack value" of 6 rather than the knights' normal 4. (3 units with 4 attack = 12 combined attack; 12/6 = 2; 2 added to knight attack of 4 = 6). So that 3 knight army becomes a 12HP, 3-move, 6 attack, 4 defense, blitz-enabled, pillage-without-cost war machine.

    As alexman said in a related thread, think about an immortal army early in the ancient age

    Again, I haven't tested defense, nor have I tested the effects of building the military academy (nor do I plan to).

    In the interests of "civ scholarship" the following quote describes the test parameters I used so others can verify I haven't overlooked anything or made a mistake, and I'll post the .biq test scenario if anyone wants it.

    I established a small landmass where both Rome (human) and Egypt (AI) have one city. The land is RR'd. All unit experience levels have 10 HPs in order to eliminate the effects of promotions and in order to generate more separate combat results from each monotonous attack than 4 HPs provide. Longbows are modded to have an attack value of 22 and 2 moves (revenge of the longbows ); Infantry are modded to have a defense of 20. The Egyptian AI has a stack of ~40 infantry, unfortified on grassland -- with the grassland bonus, the infantry have an effective defense of 22. The Roman human has 30 longbows and 10 armies -- these are combined into 10 armies of 3 longbows each. Then it is just a matter of launching repeated attacks against the infantry stack with longbow armies, and keeping track of how many HPs are lost by each side.

    If there were no army combat bonus, we should expect (with sufficient trials) a roughly 50 - 50 win - loss ratio between an army attacking at 22 offense against a defender with an effective 22 defense. If the 1/6 base bonus is present, we should expect the longbow armies to win about 60% of the time (3 longbows at 22 offense = 66 attack points; 66/6 = 11; 11 added to the attack of 22 means an effective atack of 33; 33 attack versus 22 defense = 33/55 = 60% win expected).

    Out of 977 total individual combat die rolls (HPs), the armies lost 393 HPs while the infantries lost 584 HPs, meaning the infantries lost, and the longbows won, 59.775% of the combats - pretty darn close to the expected 60 - 40 split.
    Let the "armies too strong" debates begin

    Catt

  • #2
    WOW

    I must have missed the info about the increase in attack factor of armies... That's incredible.

    I must say that I will be adjusting my strategy to get three of four elite units by:

    building attack units early; attacking barbs; achieving elite status; attacking a weak neighbor; getting a military GL; building an army; populating with my elite attack units; and then picking a war with another nearby weak civ for land, luxuries and resources.

    To get an army early seems to have too many benefits to ignore -- even for the peaceful builder. Remember, strength allows peace!

    Catt, this thread has the potential to be a great discussion!

    Edit: reorganized thoughts...hard to do at work!
    Last edited by Shogun Gunner; November 14, 2003, 15:05.
    Haven't been here for ages....

    Comment


    • #3
      Excellent, somebody got around to testing it.

      So my 3x Cavalry armies are actually:

      3*6 = 18/6 = 3 + 6 = 9 attack
      3*3 = 9/6 = 1.5, round down to 1 + 3 = 4 defense

      But wait, there's (possibly) more...

      I have the Military Academy. As Catt noted, he hasn't tested this yet, but *IF* it really increases the bonus to 1/4, my Cav armies look like this:

      3*6 = 18/4 = 4.5, round down to 4 + 6 = 10 attack
      3*3 = 9/4 = 2.25, round down to 2 + 3 = 5 defense

      So I might have two 10/5/4's with blitz running around in my current game. That might help explain their prowess.

      -Arrian
      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

      Comment


      • #4
        Remember, strength allows peace!
        You are grown wise, grasshopper. (we need a "nods sagely" smiley)

        -Arrian
        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

        Comment


        • #5
          Nice work, Catt. Good to have you hanging around the forums again.

          Personally, I like the new armies. They actually seem worthwhile now, and don't penalize the player for building them (beyond the "no upgrade" feature). My only problem is the random factor that is involved; I have not generated a single MGL in three C3C games played, so no army, and no Military Academy to build additional armies.

          My solution is to unflag "requires victorious army" for the Military Academy, thus allowing any Civ to build them eventually. That helps level the playing field. While Military Civs still have the better chance of early armies, now non-Military Civs have a chance to build some too later in the game.
          "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
          "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
          "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

          Comment


          • #6
            Hmm, I also have the Pentagon, but haven't yet added a 4th cav to my armies, because I don't have transports yet. But when I get around to doing that...

            4*6 = 24/6 = 4
            or
            4*6 = 24/4 = 6!!

            So my Cav armies could, if the Mil Acad does increase the bonus, end up with 100% attack & defense bonuses (12/6/4).

            Um, like, wow.

            -Arrian
            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

            Comment


            • #7
              It would be nice if the stats in the lower right info window reflected these army bonuses (e.g. your cavalry in your army would show 10/5/4 instead of 6/3/3) -- I think it would be clearer this way, perhaps have it in italics or red font or something to indicate it's an army bonus...

              Comment


              • #8
                Assuming the "1/4" is correct, put four Modern Armor into an army with the Military Academy:

                24*4 = 96/4 = 24 + 24 = 48 Attack.

                OUCH.
                "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
                "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
                "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oh, I agree. It definitely should display.

                  More possibilities, ancient era:

                  3x legionary: 4/4/2. Basically, the equivalent to a Samurai army in PTW.
                  3x immortal: 6/3/2. Almost an old cav army... just a tad slower.
                  3x Mounted Warrior: 4/1/3. Meh.
                  3x Gallic Swordsman: 4/3/3. PTW Rider army equivalent.
                  3x Numidian Merc: 3/4/2. Now quite the Legionary, but doesn't need iron.
                  3x normal Swords: 4/3/2. As good as PTW knights.

                  Medieval:

                  Riders: 6/4/4
                  Samurai: 6/6/3 Now THAT's hardcore. No need to slow down your Cav now - we've now got a 12+hp 3-move rifleman that can hit too!
                  Musketeers: 3/7/2. We fart in your general direction! Your pathetic kkkkknnnnniggots stand no chance!
                  Merc Pikeman: 1/6/2. Silly Frenchies, you paid 180shields for the units you put in your army. We used half that. So we had enough left over to build a Cavalry unit too.

                  Ok, that's enough outta me.

                  -Arrian
                  grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                  The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What would a Mech Inf army's defense be, then? Base is 20?

                    4*20 = 80/4 = 20. Defends at 40.

                    40*.25 (fortification) = 10
                    40*1 (metro bonus) = 40

                    40+10+40 = 90 defense. How's that 48 lookin' now?

                    -Arrian
                    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RobC
                      It would be nice if the stats in the lower right info window reflected these army bonuses (e.g. your cavalry in your army would show 10/5/4 instead of 6/3/3) -- I think it would be clearer this way, perhaps have it in italics or red font or something to indicate it's an army bonus...
                      It would be nice, but the stats have never worked correctly anyway. If you mix different units in an army, the stats show as an average of the constituent units' stats, but the army actually attacks and defends with individual unit stats (depending on which unit is the "active" unit).

                      Catt

                      Comment


                      • #12

                        I guess military Great Leaders (and the militaristic trait) didn't get shafted by Conquests after all.

                        Without more time playing, it's hard to say if it's unbalancing or not.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hmm, mixed unit armies...

                          Let's take an example from a recent game of mine. My first army was 1x mounted warrior, 2x knight.

                          3.1.2
                          4.3.2 unit stats

                          I attacked a city with that army, and ended up losing it to a pikeman (I think I hit it twice... I got greedy). All the way down to the last hp, a knight was showing as my attacker. So how, exactly, does the "mixing" work?

                          -Arrian
                          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            great thread.

                            My 3 jav army in my current game was shredding spears and swords (and enslaving) like mad, this would help to explain that.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              3/3/2 with enslavement. Nice toy.

                              -Arrian
                              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X