Armies DO Have Combat Bonus!

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by Dominae
Do you guys miss the fact that MGLs cannot rush all Wonders?


Dominae

I love this change. This change keeps a leading civ from getting to far ahead. Usually war means new luxuries, cities, etc...AND producing great wonders. Nice way to run away with the whole game.

Regarding the army's new capabilities: Sherman Lives Again... (with apologies to anyone from Georgia)

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner

Regarding the army's new capabilities: Sherman Lives Again... (with apologies to anyone from Georgia)

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I do love the MGLs... but I'm not sure about the Wonder rushing change. Yeah, it was too easy before, but still, I've yet to get one SGL out of about 10 epic games. Sure, I haven't always had the tech lead, but I often have had it... it's a bit galling... there's a lot of talk about how not allowing MGLs to rush wonders helps the builder, but frankly, a 3% success rate for being in the lead - which can take some effort - seems simply too minimal, and not very pro-builder at all.

[pauli]

anything that hinders the conqueror helps the builder. at least in theory.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I would also like to kvetch that the builder on huge maps doesn't get an immense advantage, at least in the ancient era. All the AI civs still try to build at least one wonder, and with 3 more available in that era, each AI civ generally gets at least one built... which is one more the "builder" can't build. They'll all start out pre-building the Pyramids, and very often, the human player can only get 1 or 2 wonders out of this era.

Not that I'm complaining TOO MUCH... I like the challenge, and I enjoy conquering wonders, especially with these new armies.

But the argument that the game now favors the builder is still subject to debate, in my view.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Slax
I don't remember players complaining about MGLs rushing wonders before C3C. Did this come from the beta?

I never really full-on complained, but it did bug me a bit that builders were at a horrible disadvantage in the wonder race.

Not everyone wants to fight as much as you must to generate leaders in anything resembling a consistent manner, but almost everyone researches tech.

I'm not saying the chance for SGLs is "right", I'm just saying that (IMO) you shouldn't have to go to war in order to rush a wonder.

I like SGLs so far, even though I've only gotten 1. It seems fairer in regards to both Builder vs. Warmonger and Player vs. AI(although you could argue that it's actually player vs AIs which mangles the odds a bit).

Edit:

YS said: I do love the MGLs... but I'm not sure about the Wonder rushing change. Yeah, it was too easy before, but still, I've yet to get one SGL out of about 10 epic games. Sure, I haven't always had the tech lead, but I often have had it... it's a bit galling... there's a lot of talk about how not allowing MGLs to rush wonders helps the builder, but frankly, a 3% success rate for being in the lead - which can take some effort - seems simply too minimal, and not very pro-builder at all.

I played dozens of Vanilla Civ3 before getting a single MGL, so it's not too out of whack in that regard, but at least with MGLs you can maximize your odds.
Maybe being the first to a tech should give you a cumulative bonus to your chances, reset upon the generation of a SGL or upon entering a new age, whichever comes first? Or maybe some other way for the player to influence his chances similar to "Getting the Most Out of Your Elites".

[Catt]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
But the argument that the game now favors the builder is still subject to debate, in my view.

I wouldn't argue that the game favors the builder now, nor am I sure anyone really has made that argument (if someone does, I'll join you in debating that one ). Warfare still allows you to acquire land, resources, population, wonders, techs, gold, etc. and simultaneously deny sich things to your enemies -- i.e., warmongering is still a very, very profitable Civ business.

It's rather that the C3C changes strengthen a builder's hand a bit and weaken a warmonger's hand a bit.

Catt

[Harovan]

... (never mind)

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Question:
So if armies are indeed stronger....Could I simply make armies a "you can build this unit anytime" unit and have a 'stacked combat'-esque battle?

There's a certain flag for wonders that makes it possible to build Armies. All you would have to do is make it a really really cheap Small Wonder and reduce the cost of Armies and they could be built like regular units.

[sabrewolf]

or let the palace have that flag?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Trip
There's a certain flag for wonders that makes it possible to build Armies. All you would have to do is make it a really really cheap Small Wonder and reduce the cost of Armies and they could be built like regular units.

Well, he just could set the "Advance needed" setting of the Military Academy from "Military Tradition" to "Warrior Code" or even "None", remove the "Needs victorious army" flag, drop its price to 10 shields, and the price of an army too. Voilà, lots of armies from the start. How this would change gameplay and what the AI would do about it, I don't know and am not up to test.

[sabrewolf]

oh, and don't forget to lower the "number of cities needed per army". default is 4.

sir ralph, you could even put the costs down to 1 shield. c3c now has that

[Harovan]

Yes, but only for units.

I'm not sure if it would take a 0 in the "number of cities needed per army" setting. In this case, there could be unlimited armies, hypothetically.

[dworkin]

Given the way armies act now, the dark side will remain as popular as ever.

In my first game I have just hit Cavalry and OMG! The 3 Cav army rocks. It slices, it dices, it heals in 1-2 turns and comes back for more!

[CerberusIV]

I have 2 crusader armies in my current game. 7/4/2, then I built the Military Academy so they are now 8/5/2. I will have a third army shortly to build the Pentagon and have saved a couple of spare crusaders to add so a 4 crusader army becomes 10/6/2 with at least 16HP. That is more than useful against riflemen, possibly even against infantry so one big change is that armies extend the useful life of older units. I will be using 4 cav armies to attack in the mid-industrial now, not just parking them in captured cities to deter culture flips.

Two minor gripes about crusaders. Yes, they are good to put into armies since you can't upgrade them anyway but then they lose the build fortress ability. Second they can build fortresses but then can't add barricades (perhaps I can change that one in the editor).

Final thought here - there is no question in my mind what to do with that first MGL now - it has to be an army, anything else can wait or be built the hard way.