Looking for some help on a Discworld scenario...

[duke o' york]

Maybe I was just rubbish, and concentrated too much on producing caravans so that I could get the techs to build some good units. I thought that Leonardo would help with this, but got the techs wrong. I'm going to beware the Golems tech in future! It was probably only because I wasn't that confident with the tech tree, but there seem to be few "in between" units: in normal Civ terms you can go from warriors to crusaders, but have to do lots of research for it, and have nothing in between.
I think that (unless you are happy with the scenario being so hard) you should also adjust the attitude of the Independents. I started another game as Klatch, and in both games was sneak-attacked by the Independents within the first turn, and then they refused to talk to me after that. I had to escort all my caravans to A-M, because although the trickle of purple units northward eventually stopped, they'd still hang around the other cities and cause trouble.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Maybe I was just rubbish

Yes, that's probably the explanation, and my scenario is perfect!

As much as I would like it to be so (scenario-related, nothing personal, of course ), I'm afraid you might not be rubbish!

, and concentrated too much on producing caravans so that I could get the techs to build some good units. I thought that Leonardo would help with this, but got the techs wrong.

You probably got something wrong there, because I think that, from the start, you need only 3-4 techs before you can build Mac Nac Feegle! So Leonardo should have been of help there...

I'm going to beware the Golems tech in future!

I'll check where my event trigger is: there are (from memory...) 3 golem techs! The trigger should be on the last one (which would give you some time...), and I think it currently is on the 1st...

It was probably only because I wasn't that confident with the tech tree, but there seem to be few "in between" units: in normal Civ terms you can go from warriors to crusaders, but have to do lots of research for it, and have nothing in between.

yes and no !

Yes, there are no unit between the basic one and the Good offensive (or defensive) one! This is because all the civs have their specific units and use up a lot of slots! And this has the added effect of making sure that all units are of use

No, you don't have to do lots of research (as I wrote before)! But you have to study the tech tree carefully

And BTW, there might be a (slight) exageration in the Warrior-Crusader comparison, the basic unit is A:3 D:3, mv 1 with HP/FP 1/1, and the offensive unit is A:5 D:3, mv 2 with HP/FP 1/2 (again: from memory). So the gap isn't that wide (though decisive enough to unlock situations, hopefully).

Does this "lack" of in between units prove painful for the other testers?? I didn't mind, but I might be biased somehow...

I think that (unless you are happy with the scenario being so hard) you should also adjust the attitude of the Independents. I started another game as Klatch, and in both games was sneak-attacked by the Independents within the first turn, and then they refused to talk to me after that. I had to escort all my caravans to A-M, because although the trickle of purple units northward eventually stopped, they'd still hang around the other cities and cause trouble.

The scenario is hard? That's good! But it might be harder than I wanted! So let's coun't this as a NO for the "happy with the scen" question!)

So about the attitude of the Independents: I should probably change their behavior in the rules.txt, but there is nothing I can do about the fact they refuse to talk: I blocked this in the event, because I don't want them to get any tech by trade (or any tech at all, actually): they have so many cities they would "cruise" along the tech tree and trigger all the event (which the AI is too dumb to enjoy)

And they shouldn't be able to bother you for long, as they can only build REALLY expensive units, so they shouldn't be able to move once their few scouts from the start have disappeared!

But maybe I should remove all their scouts from the start? Leaving them with only static units until they can build their rare barbarian mercenaries??

And about the DD Monsters from the previous post: maybe I should swith the slots between DD Monster and Scout? My only problem is that then the DD might build scouts in their cities, instead of DD monster... I'll test that tonight...

[duke o' york]

Just say that you have to change production when you found/capture a new city. This will prevent you being able to build DD monsters straight off, but I reckon they're in the right place. You should then make players change it honourably, and not exploit it.
I found that the Independents were able to send catapults to attack my cities in the short period we were at "proper" war. I think that, if possible, it would be better for the other civs to be unable to talk to the orange or purple, but have the realtions at war with the orange, and peace with the purple. This can only be changed if the player actually goes out to attack the Independents, so should be responsible for the results of their own actions. It's a bit harsh to have to withstand the attacks of loads of Independents right in the opening turns, but things get a lot better after that, once they've used up their starting units.

[Cyrion]

Very, very weird!

So, I did check a few things, and will be able to solve some points quite easily!

First, and this is really amazing (for me at least), abut the DD Monsters you were able to build!

I made a test: I choose a DD city (currently building DD Monster) and took it with each playable civ in turn:

1) every civ, upon taking it, saw its production AUTOMATICALLY swithced to its basic defensive unit (i.e. City Watch, Camel Riders, etc.), EXCEPT for Ramtop Kingdoms! This explains why I nobody had noticed before!

2) If Ramtop takes the city, the production didn't change and it kept building DD monster until I tried to change the production, and then it of course became unavailable!

3) the same was true when building a new city with the public workers!

So I had a look at the rules, and the only difference I found between Ogg Family and all the other basic units was its role: I hade forgotten to put it as defensive, and had attack instead! I changed that, and retested: it now works!!

But I find it strange nonetheless...

Then about the Gods appearance: as I thought, they are triggered by the 1st Golem tech, instead of the 3rd! This will be corrected!

And about the Barbarian and Gods/Dragons/etc. strength and appearance rate: I would like more feedback: are they really too strong / too common??

[Cyrion]

And about the otehr triggers: I'll see if I can postpone them a bit!

And I'll probably remove the scouts the Independents have from start: that should quiet them a bit...

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
In another game (as Ramtop(?)) I was able to build monsters of Ee in a couple of cities - was that a mistake as well?

RJM at Sleeper's

I had the same experience with Ramtops, so I'm glad you've sorted it out.

On the question of balance, I think you should beef up the main land based offensive unit. As it stands, it has a maximum attack strength of 7.5 which means it struggles against a good defensive unit behind city walls (defensive strength 9 before considering veteran status or terrain bonus). I think you should increase its attack strength by1 or possible even 2.

I have a suggestion about governments. It is that only A-M should be a republic. It is quite disconerting to have the senate overruling you as Uberwald and it also means that exploration can cause unhapiness. If A-M was the only republic, the white player could be the patrician's chief advisor and it could be the patrician himself (rather than the senate) that prevented attacks or accepted treaties.

On the subject of playability, I get a bit frustrated by the large empty map and lack of public workers. Because of the limitations of the land based unit that I mentioned above, I build up armies of flying units with a scout to capture the city. As a result it is difficult to capture a city more than 8 tiles from another city. If I have a spare public worker, I can found an staging post city, but there are too few workers to do this very often. Failing this I have to adopt Kamikaze tactics with my flying units; attacking on their second hop and dying after a succesful attack. (On this subject, it's worth changing the message since at the moment it reffers to bombers and fighters.) /EDIT On reading this, it's just struck me that perhaps there is a way of building the equivalent of airbases that could be used to solve this problem. If this is possible, feel free to blow a raspberry in my direction. /END EDIT

On the subject of the tech tree, at the moment I research my way to the tech that gives me my flying unit - usually with a reasonable amount of tech swapping. This enables me to start to attack my nearest neighbour. I then research towards death, my national hero and portal closure. I'm only interested in these end units, so I don't have any strong feelings about getting white goods from intermediate technologies.

I still find the scenario playable and enjoyable, so don't get put off by all this feed-back.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: Very, very weird!

Originally posted by Cyrion

And about the Barbarian and Gods/Dragons/etc. strength and appearance rate: I would like more feedback: are they really too strong / too common??

I can't say anything about the barbarian units - I still haven't managed to find one. (In my current game, virtually all of the map is exposed.)

As for the Independents - yes they are pesky and will attack early, but I don't think its a problem. A good defensive unit can cope with it. However, they are the reason that I make death a top priority - it can soak up a lot of their attacks.

As far as the Orange meanies are concerned, they are strong and aggressive, but they can be beaten by a good force of veteran flyers. They are also useful as a way of getting vet status for your flyers in the first place. I don't think they are too strong, but they are a major challenge.

The real problem with DD is that their initial attack is very strong. If you have not allready captured a number of cities, they are likely to overwhelm you. However if you can survive the initial onslaught it's not too difficult to recover.

RJM at Sleeper's

[duke o' york]

RJM, I think that there is a confusion between the barbarians and the barbarian leaders. I was complaining that the normal barbs (those orange blokes with the shield and the beards) being hard to kill early on. The barbarian leaders are the one-use howitzers. You get them by finding a barbarian village (a stationary orange unit at the very edges of the map - I'm not giving away their exact locations, but I've found two), and attacking it with a scout. They've only got a defense of 1, so your scout should win. The scout then disappears, and you receive a barbarian hero unit in your capital city. There isn't a message to tell you that you've received one (HINT, HINT), but they look like Zulu warriors, with their swords raised outwards.

Cyrion, are there only a set number of Gods that can appear? I seemed to kill loads as they attacked my capital, but more kept coming. Perhaps limiting them would be a good idea.

[Cyrion]

More questions, more answers

A few things are really easy, other are more problematic...

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
On the question of balance, I think you should beef up the main land based offensive unit. As it stands, it has a maximum attack strength of 7.5 which means it struggles against a good defensive unit behind city walls (defensive strength 9 before considering veteran status or terrain bonus). I think you should increase its attack strength by1 or possible even 2.

Yes, not a bad idea! What do you all think? I could make it grow from 5 to 6 or 7?? (I think 6, personally)

I have a suggestion about governments. It is that only A-M should be a republic. It is quite disconerting to have the senate overruling you as Uberwald and it also means that exploration can cause unhapiness. If A-M was the only republic, the white player could be the patrician's chief advisor and it could be the patrician himself (rather than the senate) that prevented attacks or accepted treaties.

Yes, I think that the only Republic should be A-M! This for 2 reasons:
1) Uberwald would have more "freedom of action", and less unhappiness
2) And for A-M, I think I would change the text to say that the Guild Leaders put enough pressure on the Patrician who bids his time (as in Jingo...); if someone would be kind enough to write this for me, I wouldn't mind

On the subject of playability, I get a bit frustrated by the large empty map and lack of public workers. Because of the limitations of the land based unit that I mentioned above, I build up armies of flying units with a scout to capture the city. As a result it is difficult to capture a city more than 8 tiles from another city. If I have a spare public worker, I can found an staging post city, but there are too few workers to do this very often. Failing this I have to adopt Kamikaze tactics with my flying units; attacking on their second hop and dying after a succesful attack.

Ok, this is a major point!

I chose not to allow settlers to avoid seeing too many cities on the map! And to avoid those with more empty space around their cities to be able to overly grow!

But, I see that it might be painful for some of you, so I really need the comments from all of you on this issue!

The question is: do you feel like you need more workers, so that you can build a few cities/roads/mines ??

If yes, I could do it 2 ways:
1) increase the event occurence of public workers
2) make the public workers buildable (once an up-to-now blank tech is discovered ), but (and this is important!) REALLY expensive, so that you won't build many! and of course not for DD or Independents

So, what do you think: Do we need more PW? And which way? And about both ways:
1) when should you get new workers? every 15 turns? 20?
2) how much should they cost: 100, 150??

Keep in mind that I don't want too many settlers!

(On this subject, it's worth changing the message since at the moment it reffers to bombers and fighters.) /EDIT On reading this, it's just struck me that perhaps there is a way of building the equivalent of airbases that could be used to solve this problem. If this is possible, feel free to blow a raspberry in my direction. /END EDIT

I'll change the message!

And no, you can't build airbases at the moment (so no raspberry)! But you're right. it might be interesting to give this opportunity, calling this Outpost or something! What do you think? (I wouldn't then need to give many PW, but a few more than in the actual version would still be needed!)

On the subject of the tech tree, at the moment I research my way to the tech that gives me my flying unit - usually with a reasonable amount of tech swapping. This enables me to start to attack my nearest neighbour. I then research towards death, my national hero and portal closure. I'm only interested in these end units, so I don't have any strong feelings about getting white goods from intermediate technologies.

I still find the scenario playable and enjoyable, so don't get put off by all this feed-back.

Cool, thanks!

And:

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
I can't say anything about the barbarian units - I still haven't managed to find one. (In my current game, virtually all of the map is exposed.)

See Duke of York post

As for the Independents - yes they are pesky and will attack early, but I don't think its a problem. A good defensive unit can cope with it. However, they are the reason that I make death a top priority - it can soak up a lot of their attacks.

I still think I'll remove their scouts from the beginning, which means they won't be able to move aggressively for some times (till they have built their first Barbarian mercenaries, which cost 200!)

Surprising use of the Death unit, BTW! I designed it to deal with the 3 Horsemen unit, but your use is interesting indeed! And if your civ isn't too close to the 3 Horsemen appearance, you're not the one suffering from their attacks...

As far as the Orange meanies are concerned, they are strong and aggressive, but they can be beaten by a good force of veteran flyers. They are also useful as a way of getting vet status for your flyers in the first place. I don't think they are too strong, but they are a major challenge.

The real problem with DD is that their initial attack is very strong. If you have not allready captured a number of cities, they are likely to overwhelm you. However if you can survive the initial onslaught it's not too difficult to recover.

Yes, their initial assault can be strong, that's why it's a good thing if I can "delay" it a bit by changing the triggers! Which I already started with the golems!

But I still might weaken their Barbarian (Northern and Nomads) a little bit, I'm not sure whether it's necessary or not... Or maybe not make them Vet when appearing would be enough??

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by duke o' york
RJM, I think that there is a confusion between the barbarians and the barbarian leaders. I was complaining that the normal barbs (those orange blokes with the shield and the beards) being hard to kill early on. The barbarian leaders are the one-use howitzers. You get them by finding a barbarian village (a stationary orange unit at the very edges of the map - I'm not giving away their exact locations, but I've found two), and attacking it with a scout. They've only got a defense of 1, so your scout should win. The scout then disappears, and you receive a barbarian hero unit in your capital city. There isn't a message to tell you that you've received one (HINT, HINT), but they look like Zulu warriors, with their swords raised outwards.

Duke, this is a word-perfect description of what I had in mind with the Barbarian Heroes! And there are only 2 villages, so you found it all!

I'll add a message telling that Barb Heroes have been recruited!

And BTW: do you think they work fine? are they of use? strong enough? not too strong? Do you think I shoudl substract some money for their hiring?? (I believe the cost of the scout is enough...)

Cyrion, are there only a set number of Gods that can appear? I seemed to kill loads as they attacked my capital, but more kept coming. Perhaps limiting them would be a good idea.

Well, I'm afraid there is an unlimited set of Gods (or Dragons, Monster of Ee, Mummies) which appear!

Let me explain why (i.e. how it works): let's get technical

I have an event which creates a God on a definite spot every 3-4 turns! At start, this square is occupied by an invincible unit belonging to the nature civ, which means the creation can't take place!

Upon reaching a definite tech, this impassable unit is destroyed by a changeterrain, and Dunmanifestin (home of the gods) is created on the square. From then on, the Gods can be created on the square, as it is occupied by an unit belonging to their civ.

When Dunmanifestin is destroyed, an impassable nature unit is recreated on the square, effectively blocking further creation of gods on it!

So there is no way I can imagine of limiting the number of Gods, except maybe slow their appearance to 1 every 5-6-X turn! What do you think??

And if you can propose something, I am willing to try it!

And about the catapult the Independents got in a game: this is because after a while the Independents get (by event) the tech which allows them to build city walls; and I had forgotten to block further tech along this branch (which I changed yesterday, so no more Ind catapults...).

And a BIG THANK YOU to all of you, I think we're going in the right direction, and I feel confident the scen will be enjoyable soon!

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by duke o' york
The barbarian leaders are the one-use howitzers. You get them by finding a barbarian village (a stationary orange unit at the very edges of the map - I'm not giving away their exact locations, but I've found two), and attacking it with a scout. They've only got a defense of 1, so your scout should win. The scout then disappears, and you receive a barbarian hero unit in your capital city. There isn't a message to tell you that you've received one (HINT, HINT), but they look like Zulu warriors, with their swords raised outwards.

I managed to find my first one and he is now standing proudly in my capital waiting to be told what to do.

RJM at Sleeper's

[duke o' york]

Well be vewy vewy careful with how you use these heroes, because they're one use only. Don't just waste them taking an Independent city and then see them disappear for good, like I did.

Cyrion, when can we expect an updated version?
I haven't used the newest version you sent out, because I rather like the 3 attack for Scouts (), but I desperately need the Golem tech upgrade for Gods, so I'll have to update soon.

(PS - Cyrion, ignore the spelling of vewy - it's a reference to Elmur Fudd of Bugs Bunny cartoons)

[Cyrion]

@all: Please, I really need your feedback on the following points before I can make a good update!

1) weaken the event triggered DD units (Gods, Dragons, etc.)

2) make the event triggered DD units (Gods, Dragons, etc.) appear less often

3) stengthen the playable civs offensive units

4) provide more public workers (by building or through events)

5) weaken the Northern Barb and Desert Nomads units

6) are they too many blank tech

7) should I mention in the tech description those which are "dangerous" ?? (like: "Beware, might attract the DD creatures attention...")

Please give me your opinion, and numbers (strength, rate of occurence, building cost, etc.) about this!

And I changed the messages on the flying units! I'll change Uberwald to Monarchy.

And BTW, the event file is full; should I need more in it, I would have to erase the comments inside, which I would rather not do, as they are of great help for debugging...

@rjm: glad you found the Heroes at last! and as Duke said, be careful with them: they are supposed to be useful to "crack tough nuts"...

Originally posted by duke o' york
Cyrion, when can we expect an updated version?
I haven't used the newest version you sent out, because I rather like the 3 attack for Scouts (), but I desperately need the Golem tech upgrade for Gods, so I'll have to update soon.

The updated version is planned for tomorrow evening, so that you can test it over the week-end! Provided you give me the afore-mentionned feedback till then...

And I should have time to do the same, as my girlfriend works this week-end...

(PS - Cyrion, ignore the spelling of vewy - it's a reference to Elmur Fudd of Bugs Bunny cartoons)

I prefer that: I was afraid I would have to correct my spelling of "very" in all the files...

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by duke o' york
I'll probably use the scout units to get barb heroes, but then just pile them into A-M and any other capitals with the super defenders I may happen across. War!

BTW, the Barbs are "one use" units, but the villages aren't empty after producing 1 barb hero...

This will also give the game much more replay value, because then I'll be able to have a go at Ee.
Er - Cyrion. Does the Lost City appear in random locations on the map, or once you've found it, will it appear there again in the next game?

Yes, sadly the Lost City of Ee appears at the same place: but if you know how to make it appear at random places, please tell (I'm afraid it's impossible... )

And I'm still not sure what to do once the City of Ee is destroyed:

1) nothing special, except stop the Monsters of Ee from appearing (which would already be good...)

2) destroy the DD civ

3) end the game, with victory for the destroyer...

What do you think??

[Cyrion]

And just a thought on the Public Workers; giving 1 every 20/30/whatever turns would allow to control how many cities might, in worst case, be built on the map!

Still waiting for your feedback so that I can update...