Looking for some help on a Discworld scenario...

[duke o' york]

RJM, I haven't had a chance to playtest this yet, but my understanding of the portal closure spell is that it is like a missile unit, and that your "carrier" is the hero unit for your civ.

[Cyrion]

Exactly duke!

But maybe the unit description isn't clear enough ??

(or maybe rjm didn't read the description )

And rjm, thanks for your very nice words!

I'll react to your "technical" comments later !

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by duke o' york
RJM, I haven't had a chance to playtest this yet, but my understanding of the portal closure spell is that it is like a missile unit, and that your "carrier" is the hero unit for your civ.

Originally posted by Cyrion
Exactly duke!

But maybe the unit description isn't clear enough ??

(or maybe rjm didn't read the description )

And rjm, thanks for your very nice words!

I'll react to your "technical" comments later !

Maybe RJM didn't read the description

However, there is a slight problem (I think). With all the tech swapping that went on, I think Ankh-Morpork built my hero unit. Anyway as far as I can see I don't have it. It's just possible that I threw it into battle without noticing - does it look like a flying carpet? Fairly early on in the game I started building nothing but carpets, except for the scouts I needed to occupy the captured cities. Since I wanted vet carpets, I simply attacked anything handy with my carpets. If they survived and became vet, I moved them up to the front lines. If they died, I simply built another one. So it's possible that I my hero has died a heroic death un-noticed. It doesn't seem to be a major problem - I just keep an army of non-vet carpets waiting to pounce on anything that leaves the portal. (I think it's the portal!)

Here is a suggestion (for people like me who don't RTFM). Have a text message on the creation of the hero unit that says something about carrying the portal closure spell. And another one if the hero unit dies saying there is no longer anyone to carry the spell.

RJM sits back and waits for everyone to point out that these messages are there already and I haven't read them.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
However, there is a slight problem (I think). With all the tech swapping that went on, I think Ankh-Morpork built my hero unit. Anyway as far as I can see I don't have it. It's just possible that I threw it into battle without noticing - does it look like a flying carpet? Fairly early on in the game I started building nothing but carpets, except for the scouts I needed to occupy the captured cities. Since I wanted vet carpets, I simply attacked anything handy with my carpets. If they survived and became vet, I moved them up to the front lines. If they died, I simply built another one. So it's possible that I my hero has died a heroic death un-noticed. It doesn't seem to be a major problem - I just keep an army of non-vet carpets waiting to pounce on anything that leaves the portal. (I think it's the portal!)

Here is a suggestion (for people like me who don't RTFM). Have a text message on the creation of the hero unit that says something about carrying the portal closure spell. And another one if the hero unit dies saying there is no longer anyone to carry the spell.

RJM sits back and waits for everyone to point out that these messages are there already and I haven't read them.

Excellent points RJM, and no, those points aren't in (yet)

I'll include those texts (I should have enough space left in the events).

Your special unit as Omnia is not a Flying Carpet, it's 71-hours Ahmed (look in the units to see how he looks). He shouldn't be buildable by any civ except Klatch, but I'll check that (and, if necessary, modify)

Oh, and 1 question: did you find a Barb village and recruit heroes?? If yes, did they prove useful??

And now about the points mentioned in posts before; I have been making some tests yesterday and I came to the following conclusions:

1) yes, tech progression is too fast, it'll go from 10/10 to 30/10! That way, you'll have to use other units before you get the flying ones, and the DD events won't happen before you have explored some of the world!

2) about the Independents: their crossbowmen will be static, and their cost will raise from 50 to 200! And to allow them to counterattack a little bit, they be able to build Northern Barbarians at a cost of 200 too (I haven't got any slot left, so let's think they hired mercenaries...)

3) I'll adjust the text about the submarine and Djelibeiby

4) BTW, railroad is now Casbah


I'll modify and send this tonight, so that the week-end testers can take a look at it!

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Cyrion
I'll include those texts (I should have enough space left in the events).

Done

1) yes, tech progression is too fast, it'll go from 10/10 to 30/10! That way, you'll have to use other units before you get the flying ones, and the DD events won't happen before you have explored some of the world!

Done

2) about the Independents: their crossbowmen will be static, and their cost will raise from 50 to 200! And to allow them to counterattack a little bit, they be able to build Northern Barbarians at a cost of 200 too (I haven't got any slot left, so let's think they hired mercenaries...)

Done

3) I'll adjust the text about the submarine and Djelibeiby

Done

I'll modify and send this tonight, so that the week-end testers can take a look at it!

And done

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Cyrion

Your special unit is 71-hours Ahmed (look in the units to see how he looks). He shouldn't be buildable by any civ except Klatch, but I'll check that (and, if necessary, modify)

Oh, and 1 question: did you find a Barb village and recruit heroes?? If yes, did they prove useful??

I'll modify and send this tonight, so that the week-end testers can take a look at it!

1) ) I think that in the version I am playing at the moment, all civs can research all national heros - rincewind, deacon wazisface, 71-hours Ahmed, etc. I got the 71-hours technology by swapping with AM, but I don't think I ever got the special unit. It's worth checking on that.

2) I don't think I've found a Barb village yet - I certainly haven't recruited any heros, so I don't know whether they would prove useful.

3) I've received the latest version, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to look at it.

I was able to play some more turns in the previous version yesterday. After an epic battle , Klatch managed to capture Ankh Morpork. My first attack (with 16 vet carpets) took the main defensive unit into the red, but just failed to beat it. After rebuilding my depleted army, I attacked again, this time with 20 vet carpets and AM was mine. Very satisfying.

RJM at Sleeper's

[duke o' york]

Thanks for the tips RJM.
I'm planning to play this weekend, and have already decided that I'm not too bothered about the Lost City of Ee. It can stay lost as far as I'm concerned, because I'm going all out to wipe A-M off the map! I haven't decided which civ to do this with yet, but quite fancy vampires and werewolves. I'll probably use the scout units to get barb heroes, but then just pile them into A-M and any other capitals with the super defenders I may happen across. War!
This will also give the game much more replay value, because then I'll be able to have a go at Ee.
Er - Cyrion. Does the Lost City appear in random locations on the map, or once you've found it, will it appear there again in the next game?

[rjmatsleepers]

I played a few turns with the latest version (as blue). Everything worked fine and I have no game issues to comment on. I can confirm that slowing down the tech rate makes the game more challenging and IMO better. I did wonder however, whether you've increased the defensive power of the independents. I sent my scouts exploring large sections of the world and also managed to exchange maps with Ramtops and (I think) Klatch. However I haven't noticed any of these Barbarian villages yet.

I built and delivered a large number of merchants which boosted my research rate no end. After a while, 3 of my 5 cities couldn't build any more goods - the fourth was repeating timber to its hearts content and the final one was flip flopping between fat and magical devices. Anyway, since there was nothing else worth building, I let my other 3 cities build food caravans (merchants) and had a whole slew of them so I was able to build a WoW - the first time I've bothered in this scenario. But now I'm churning out Vampires like there's no tomorrow before unleashing them on an unsuspecting world.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
I can confirm that slowing down the tech rate makes the game more challenging and IMO better. I did wonder however, whether you've increased the defensive power of the independents.

Excellent news about the tech rate!

About the independents: yes, I raised the crossbowmen defense to avoid the use of scouts in offense! I was, in retrospect, a mistake: I should have lowered the scout attack to 2 and left the crossbow defense to 3!

Which I just did in the rules below!

[Cyrion]

and I had to adjust some values in the changeterrains too:

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Cyrion
and I had to adjust some values in the changeterrains too:

I have downloaded this events file. Can I simply change it in the game I am currently playing or do I need to start a new game? (Silly question really, since I'll probably have worked it out before I see your reply!)

BTW, there's a small spelling error in one of the messages (can't be very serious since I failed to spot it in any of the previous times I played the scenario). The message about golems should read:

Man's impudence has become too great for the Gods: how could the puny mortals dare to create life with golems?? They get angry and come down from Dunmanifestin to express their disagreement! Something must be done to stop them...

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

Can I simply change it in the game I am currently playing or do I need to start a new game?

Well, to answer my own question ... I can simply replace the events.txt file and don't need to start a new game.

The weakening of the independent's defence means that the independents' cities are now much easier to capture and it is much more likely that a non-vet unit will become vet. I wonder whether actually you didn't need to weaken it.

BTW I got the message about carrying the portal spell, so that bit works fine.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

One small point. Because Uberwald is a republic, its leader seems to be referred to as Patrician. I think it would be better if this were confined to Ankh Morpork.

RJM at Sleeper's

[duke o' york]

I played with Ramtop and have a point: I built Leonardo da Quirm and got the Golem tech. This meant that the Gods appeared on the map. Right in between Ramtop and Uberwald! And massacred us both, apart from the two capitals, because our special defensive units are so strong. This is a little unfair on both the civs in that area, because I ended the game (closed it) with DD creatures on all my city squares and gods and dragons attacking me every turn.

Also: I captured an independent city by using 2 barbarian heroes and loads of DD creatures. I was a bit disappointed that the DD creatures die after only one use, because this limits their effectiveness massively, but then I hadn't been careful enough when reading their descriptions. I was able to build the DD creatures when capturing the Independent city (with a huge pile of Scouts) by not changing the production orders. This shouldn't happen I'm guessing, but as far as I was concerned it was a good thing, because I didn't manage to research a decent offensive unit until the Nac Mac Feegle, when Lanmcre was size 2, and being starved by DD creatures, barbarians, gods and dragons.
I think that there are too many "blank" techs which don't actually give you anything useful: all the Magic Theory, etc. techs, and all the Tactic techs are just waypoints en route to others, and you don't get anything for them, just stuck in a quagmire of useless techs and no units or improvements from them.
Because hardly any of the other civs got any better units, then I saw the Independent city to the east of A-M change hands about eight times in ten or so turns, because the AI civs would send about twelve scouts in to attack, but then be unable to hold the city, only having piles of scouts to defend it.
The barbarian units are too strong. You can defend your cities from the DD creatures and from Independent scouts and catapults but sending out scouts and then attacking them when you see them, but the barbarians will survive your attacks until you've sent at least three scouts at them. The defensive units are all right, but you'd be crushed by the barbarians anyway.
There is also a mysterious square to the far south of the map, in which you cannot see anything, but you cannot move through it, and it will kill any units you try to move into it. If this is where Ee will appear, then I wouldn't make it so obvious, and it's in prime territory for Klatch expansion.
You can also build DD monsters by founding a city with one of the public workers, and if you want to finish a wonder straight away, then disbanding the public worker in your city will fill the shield box in one go.
I reckon that the scenario is imbalanced towards A-M and Omnia, because they will suffer the least from the orange civ incursions initially, and have the longest to prepare for it. In fact, next time I'm going to play as Omnia, because the ability to deliver caravans to A-M can fill your beakers up in no time.

More thoughts later maybe....
I did enjoy it, despite the RCC above.

[Cyrion]

Ouch! It seems Duke of York dug up some major problems...

I'll probably need to adjust a few things and delay the release a bit...

What I find strange is that I hadn't been noticed before!

Let's go through this!

Originally posted by duke o' york
I played with Ramtop and have a point: I built Leonardo da Quirm and got the Golem tech. This meant that the Gods appeared on the map. Right in between Ramtop and Uberwald! And massacred us both, apart from the two capitals, because our special defensive units are so strong. This is a little unfair on both the civs in that area, because I ended the game (closed it) with DD creatures on all my city squares and gods and dragons attacking me every turn.

Yes, the Gods appear in that area! It's not really unfair towards those 2 civs, as there are other events that trigger other "nasties" closer to other civs! I think that every civ would have it's (fair) share! Maybe Omnia a bit less than other!

And yes, the Gods (or Dragons, or other events-created DD monsters) are supposed to be a major nuisance! They keep appearing until their "home" is destroyed! So, once a message pops-up telling you that some DD creatures like them appears, you should act accordingly and try to destroy them quick! (maybe a message telling you in which area they appear might be useful??)

I am a bit surprised by how strong they seem to have been against you! maybe I should lower their stats a little bit ?

Also: I captured an independent city by using 2 barbarian heroes and loads of DD creatures.

You shouldn't have any DD creatures in your armies, ever!

I was a bit disappointed that the DD creatures die after only one use, because this limits their effectiveness massively, but then I hadn't been careful enough when reading their descriptions.

You mean the Barbarian Heroes, right??

And yes this limits their effectiveness: they shouldn't be your main units, but only be used to open some problematic situations...

I was able to build the DD creatures when capturing the Independent city (with a huge pile of Scouts) by not changing the production orders. This shouldn't happen I'm guessing, but as far as I was concerned it was a good thing, because I didn't manage to research a decent offensive unit until the Nac Mac Feegle, when Lanmcre was size 2, and being starved by DD creatures, barbarians, gods and dragons.

You're right, being able not to change production order shouldn't happen: it should happen automatically, I think?? I'll check that too!

Then, scouts are not for attacking, but for... scouting! As you'll notice, in the rules I posted last Saturday (and which you hadn't at your disposal, I suppose, for your playtest, their attack has been lowered from 3 to 2!!

And Yes, the Nac Mac Feegle are the Ramtops decent offensive unit! Until you get them, you only have 1 catapult at your disposal for attacking... I did this to force you to explore before attacking!

And again, having your capital under such an attack amazes me! (but I must admit I haven't really tested the game with Ramtops... )

I think that there are too many "blank" techs which don't actually give you anything useful: all the Magic Theory, etc. techs, and all the Tactic techs are just waypoints en route to others, and you don't get anything for them, just stuck in a quagmire of useless techs and no units or improvements from them.

Are they really that many "blank techs"?? I tried to avoid that, and to have at most 1 "blank" tech between 2 which give you something concrete! Isn't it so??

And do the other testers think I should cut a few tech-tree branches too??

Because hardly any of the other civs got any better units, then I saw the Independent city to the east of A-M change hands about eight times in ten or so turns, because the AI civs would send about twelve scouts in to attack, but then be unable to hold the city, only having piles of scouts to defend it.

With the scout attack at 2, the civs should even be able to take the city! We'll see if with that change the same problem occurs!

The barbarian units are too strong. You can defend your cities from the DD creatures and from Independent scouts and catapults but sending out scouts and then attacking them when you see them, but the barbarians will survive your attacks until you've sent at least three scouts at them. The defensive units are all right, but you'd be crushed by the barbarians anyway.

Again, don't use scouts for that! Are tha barbarian really that strong? I can easily lower their stats a little bit, if necessary, but I want them to be able to take a badly defended city...

There is also a mysterious square to the far south of the map, in which you cannot see anything, but you cannot move through it, and it will kill any units you try to move into it. If this is where Ee will appear, then I wouldn't make it so obvious, and it's in prime territory for Klatch expansion.

Not the City of Ee... But a place where some nasties will spawn eventually! (I told you everybody would have it's share, didn't I? )

And yes, some of the "spawning points" are obvious, but you don't know what will appear there... And it makes exploration more worthwhile... (and, above all, I really need it to be that way for my event file...)

And it's in prime territory for Klatch?? Too bad for them...

You can also build DD monsters by founding a city with one of the public workers,

Really?? If yes, then it's probalby, as in your point above, because they are in the settler slot!

Has anybody an idea how I can prevent this?

and if you want to finish a wonder straight away, then disbanding the public worker in your city will fill the shield box in one go.

Yes, because I gave them (as to any "unbuildable" units) a very I cost, to slow the AI from bribing them! But maybe I should rethink this a little bit (or make a house rule that it shouldn't be done?? What do you think??)

I reckon that the scenario is imbalanced towards A-M and Omnia, because they will suffer the least from the orange civ incursions initially, and have the longest to prepare for it. In fact, next time I'm going to play as Omnia, because the ability to deliver caravans to A-M can fill your beakers up in no time.

I think (but haven't tested enough with all civs yet) that the game might imbalanced. A-M might well be the easiest, and Ramtops probably is the hardest! But I think all the others have their good and bad points, and need different strategies...

More thoughts later maybe....
I did enjoy it, despite the RCC above.

Well, I hope you had not too bad a time!

Thanks for the points you found, you gave me much to ponder...

To all: do you think I should trigger the DD apparitions by later techs?? So that you can prepare better for them??

And should I lower the DD stats a bit??

I think I can safely say that I won't release it today as intended...

But if it means I'll release a better scen, then it's for the best

@rjm: point taken about the Patrician