Peace in our times

[Jerec]

Of course. But I'm just leaving for a conference, to come back Friday. Hope you can wait 'til then.

[McMonkey]

Thanks mate. I can certainly wait until the end of the week for your valued input. Hopefully by then I should have most of the scenario ready bar the events. I will post the files on the Scenario League.

I have finished the tech tree but may swap a few things around after testing and checking that the sequences are logical. The events should be a lot easier than in a single player game as I won't be compensating for the AI.

Hopefully this will be ready in the next couple of weeks and we can start a game at Civ Webring

[Eurisko]

Hi Werd.

One thing you may want to look into is that for some reason, in many of the Europe map WW2 scenarios, such as Axis & Allies and Appeasement & Aggression, as you surely noticed, is that Germany is very reluctant or simply incapable of easily invading France through the low countries.

As was the case in the Axis & Allies PBEM (way back on Evo or maybe even CDG, I think... how time flies by), the French player, unlike the French in real life, fully knows his weakness and expects the Germans to come rolling through the low countries and can therefore fortify properly, especially in scenarios which are set so early that everyone has to build their army from the ground up.

It's really the same with the US and Pearl Harbor in BK1936, for example. No sane US player would station their fleet there, knowing fully what would happen.

So, do you have any ideas on how to make a German conquest of France probable and possible?

Oh, and another thing I noticed is that the first target of the Germans in almost any WWII scenario seems to be Britain, before France or Russia since it's easily reachable by transport ship. Maybe you should implement something like in 2194, where the Germans start with transports which have a very limited range and only acquire "proper" transports after capturing London.

Btw, if there's space left I would be interested in taking a minor nation in the playtest, such as the US.

And speaking of the US, you could turn it into an industrial powerhouse and more of a nation to reckon with by giving it its very own high production squares (such as the Ruhr/Ural industries square in BK1936).

[McMonkey]

I can certainly put you down for the US. It only starts with four cities but they are all industrial giants. I have used one of the terrain slots for 'Industrial' which has a very high shield output. This way I can ensure that the US cities and key cities like Cologne, Essen and Pilsen are industrial hubs. I hate it when minor cities that happen to be in hilly terrain become major production centres when in reality they were sleepy backwaters!

I have decided to create a house rule for amphibious invasions that states that the troops must spend one turn at sea before landing. This way the British Navy and RAF would have at least one turn in which they could wipe out an invasion fleet. The German player would need to take out the RAF and block the Royal Navy before it would be safe to launch Operation Sealion.

The question of the French will need a bit of thought. The Maginot line is already in place but ends before the Ardennes so that will still be the easiest route for invasion. It is inevitable that any WWII scenario will be played with the benefit of hindsight. I will ponder this carefully. I don't want to make the French too weak as a German victory should not be an inevitablilty. On the other hand the Germans should have better unit types and if they capture Warsaw they will have many veterans that will give them an edge.

As soon as I have a presentable test version ready I will upload it to the Scenario League Wiki so that potential players can see my ideas and suggest needed changes prior to beginning the multipleyer game.

A lot of thought has gone into making this a well balanced multiplayer game but explaining everything would take up many pages so I will get this early version ready soon so that you can see what I am trying to do

[Eurisko]

I think the whole avoidance of France as a target is caused by accessibility and profitability.

Simply put, France is not worth it. Conquering it would take too much and add too little, leaving it alone would make it, at worst, an annoying thorn in Germany's side, so the obvious choice is to ignore France and focus on enemies which are more accessable , such as Britain via sea, or more profitable targets, such as the Soviet Union.

I think the conquest of France could be made more enticing by placing railroads in the low countries such that German troops could advance much faster, and by giving one of the northern French border cities a wonder the capture of which would be among Germany's priorities.

Taking Appeasement & Aggression as an example, what I would do is place railroads connecting Arnhem, Brussels and Liege (it shouldn't be allowed to pillage those railroads, and they should not link to coastal cities to avoid an unrealistic British "blitz" counterinvasion) and would place an important wonder in Reims, such as the Hoover Dam, as well as reward Germany with a very significant amount of money for pushing all the way through to Paris (20 000 gold seems fair and enticing).

[McMonkey]

Interesting idea. I will probably use the reward element of it to make France a worthwhile target. I am not sure about making the Ardennes more accessible by placing railroads but I will give it some thought. New ideas are what I am looking for in this game

The only wonders I have left are Science ones and I have not decided if I will use them yet. I will need to see how the science rates balance out. I agree that not enough thought has gone into making France a worthwhile target in previous games and will try to cover this in The Rise of the Dictators (as I am calling this game for now).

In the multiplayer game Germany will have the advantage of being able to decide when and where to strike without needing a pretext. France can only react to German moves. For instance Germany could invade in 1937 before it tackles Poland and catch the west off guard. The west can only declare war on Germany if they have a valid reason (IE Germany annexes Austria/Czechoslovakia/Poland)

[Eurisko]

Originally posted by McMonkey
The only wonders I have left are Science ones and I have not decided if I will use them yet. I will need to see how the science rates balance out.

To make up for the US's lack of the ability to produce caravans very quickly, I'd give them exclusively the ability to produce the Darwin's Voyage wonder, as well as giving their cities all science wonders except for the SETI Project, else I don't see the US keeping up with the other nations in terms of trade.

And to make up for the monetary loss the the US incur from lack of trade, maybe they should also be given money (2000 or so) every turn, also since they're the biggest economy on earth.

To keep up with other nations in terms of units produced/turn, US cities should produce most units (infantry, tanks, fighters, bombers) in a single turn, and only the biggest units (battleships, carriers) in multiple turns.

Btw, to make France a more lucrative target and a better point of operations against England for Germany, you could give the Germans a tech which they can research after getting the prerequisite tech via event when they capture Paris which creates veteran bunkers (Maginot line in Appeasement & Aggression) in the French and low countries coastal cities.

Bunkers should also be placed in cities and countries which are supposed to be hard to capture. Berlin, Essen, Dresden, Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, London, Birmingham, Rome, Milan all US cities, Finland, and Marseille come to mind.

[Jerec]

Originally posted by Eurisko
I think the conquest of France could be made more enticing by placing railroads in the low countries such that German troops could advance much faster, and by giving one of the northern French border cities a wonder the capture of which would be among Germany's priorities.

Excellent idea. Maybe the wonder in Norway can be taken out and placed in France. Scandinavia is enticing enough as an assembly area for an invasion of Germany.

I remember reading about house rules where if one conquered an enemy's capital, that enemy had to become the satellite of the conqueror. Did that work out?


The scen files aren't on SLeague yet, correct?

[McMonkey]

I will be adding a 'Vichy' house rule which will force the French player to surrender once Paris has been captured. After this France must hand over the cities it did historically (Nantes/Brest etc...) and the new Vichy government must disband all but garrison units on the French mainland. They will in effect be a puppet state of the Germans. It is up to the French player how fully they co-operate.

I need to decide what to do about the French fleet and what will trigger the release of the French player. For example when/if the Allies capture Casablanca, Oran and Algiers the French player will have the option to become the Free French. If they decide to do this then the Germans can occupy the thinly held French metropolitan cities.

This will all need to be thought out carefully and put into a simple to understand and follow set of Diplomatic house rules but you get the general idea.

I will probably boost the US economy with event created Traders and units. Bunkers will be added to key cities and all the other ideas have also been noted and will be considered.

I have just added the early version to the SL wiki page so you can take a look and come up with some more ideas . I still have a lot of work to do on it so don't consider this an Alpha, just an early example

Early files

[McMonkey]

Diplomatic house rules

Here is an example of the Diplomatic house rules, in this case France:



FRANCE
------

France must have a valid Casus Belli to declare war.

VICHY:

If Germany captures Paris the French government must become a puppet state. It is up to the French player how actively they chose to assist the Germans. They may decide to back Germany wholeheartedly or wait passively until the Allies come to their rescue. These rules must be followed by the French. If Germany decides to negotiate other terms that is up to them!

1, Upon the capture of Paris the French must cease resistance.

2, France must hand over control of all Metropolitan French cities bar Limoges, Toulouse, Lyon, Marseilles, Toulon and Nice.

3, France must disband all army and air force units in Metropolitan France bar one Infantry Division in each Vichy city.

4, No military units can be built in Metropolitan cities until the Free French clause (see #8).

5, France must resist any Allied attempts to take over Vichy territory in North Africa or the Levant.

6, The French fleet must either scuttle itself, hand over to the Germans or sail to colonial ports.

7, If Germany wishes to occupy Tunis the French must hand over the city even if this means disbanding of troops homed there!

8, The French will be freed from these constraints if the Allies liberate Casablanca, Algiers and Oran. The Vichy government can either chose to join the Allied side or continue to work with Germany.

9, If the Vichy government decide to become the Free French then Germany can occupy the remainder of the Metropolitan cities by force and any colonial cities they can grab.

9, The Allies can occupy any Vichy cities they wish without a Casus Belli. If is up to the Allies if they hand back control of any ex-French cities to the Free French. Should cause some realistic tension between De Galle and the Allied leaders!

Hopefully this will allow for a historically accurate option while still allowing the players to re-write history depending on their own ideas and how the game develops. Of course this will only be an option in multiplayer games.

If I have missed any important points, created any paradoxical loops or you think changes are needed please let me know. This is also a work in progress and will probably change a lot before it is finalized. When finished there will be a full list of rules for every country represented in the game, the rules for the French just happen to be the most complex.

[Jerec]

I will probably boost the US economy with event created Traders and units.

Creating military units in any quantity at the right time can be a large drain on event space. Isn't it easier to just boost US city production to the point that Eurisko wants?

Bunkers will be added to key cities...

Hmmm. It's as if you're propping up an AI. If the city is well defended, it should be made that way by the player, not the designer.

6, The French fleet must either scuttle itself, hand over to the Germans or sail to colonial ports.

Scuttling your fleet is bad. Handing it over to the enemy is worse. Sending it to a safe haven shouldn't even be a choice.



The units' stats are still currently being worked on, correct?

The Anti-Aircraft Rgt has a D of 12, to be 2x when attacked by aircraft. It's ability to attack aircraft take away the bonus it would get from the Anti Aircraft Battery improvement. In that case, Infantry are better defenders, with D 18 x2.

The Bunker's stats aren't in the Civilopedia.

The Engineer doesn't have the settler/engineer role.

The Dictatorship civ can build a Jager Division?

Is having very cheap diplos wise? Spying out any fortifications whenever one wants...at least make them cost more.

How will the units be modernized? Bat files?

The Spanish Civil War incorporated into the scen looks very promising. Of course, I have a few questions about it...

I was under the impression that the Nationalists in the SCW had a larger navy than the Republicans. Or was that from later German aid?

How will the Spanish Army of Africa be represented?

[McMonkey]

Good points

1, I may just event create US Traders so that they can still make money and get a science boost once their cities have all produced their quotas. A little testing will be required to get the balance right.

2, You are right about bunkers. The players can decide what cities are important and stock them with Infantry and AA. The neutral cities have all been kitted out in accordance with their military capabilities, multiple bunkers for the likes of Czechoslovakia and Poland and single Infantry units for the likes of Austria and Norway.

3, You are right about the French fleet. They will be allowed to stay in France!

4, Unit stats are not finalised. There are quite a few tweaks still left to do!

5, The Jager division is intended only for the Finns. This will be covered in the house rules. I may rename them Finnish Infantry.

6, I am considering making Diplomats non spy units. They can monitor troop movements but not look in cities. They will have the alpine flag and players should avoid blocking roads with them. I will go into more detail about their role later on.

7, There will be a batch file for updating the graphics but at the moment I don't intend to update the rules file as the game progresses. When everything else is finished I may look at multiple rules files.

8, I have used Pablostukas's SCW as a guide for unit allotments in Spain and the two navies were fairly equal. I will double check to see if this was the case historically.

9, There are a number of veteran troops (12) in Ceuta and where Malilla would be ready to be shipped across to the mainland that represent the Army of Africa. I think this is fairly balanced as the Nationalists should be able to get support from Italy and Germany which are both much closer than the USSR.

[Eurisko]

Okay, here's what I think so far:

Units:
There is one very pointless unit... the cavalry division. It should be replaced with something more useful, since nobody will ever build them or use them in any way other than disbanding them to speed up the production of something else.

The unit stats among units of the same type should vary. Germany should dominate the ground along with Russia, while the US and Britain rule the skies. I think 2194 did it quite nicely.

The city placement is good, but I think you gave too many cities to uninvolved nations. Turkey, for example, should only have Istanbul and Ankara. This would free up 7 right now rather pointless cities.

These cities could be given to the US to help their productivity. Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Norfolk, Detroit and Richmond or Atlanta come to mind as major US cities of note and could be added in the fairly limited but still viable US hinterland.

Then the US wouldn't need event-given trade units that way.

I'm against event-given units in general. Early on and they make a nation too powerful, later on they aren't nearly enough to keep up when everyone has had time to expand their industries. Therefore along with new cities US industrial capacity should be beefed up a bit more. And industrial squares should produce more food, else they aren't too useful when your cities are starving.

The remaining cities could be given to Spain (I love the idea of including the civil war btw).

Oh, and I know both naval wonders are placed to entice Spain and Italy to invade Gibraltar and Malta, respectively, but too early on without war they make the British too powerful by giving their transport ships +25% movement points. Maybe one of the wonders should be placed at a city like Norfolk (if it gets included) to even out the power of the allied navies, or could be given via events to the Axis when they capture Nantes to simulate their submarine dominance over the Atlantic.

Straight up placing the wonder in Nantes at the beginning would give the French too much of an advantage.

Blitzkrieg warfare is a powerful wonder, but we all know how useful Blitzkrieg tactics were later on. So obviously the wonder should expire when its owner starts getting their ass kicked. Since the two potential owners are Germany and Russia, I'd say the obsoleting tech should be given via event when Kiev, Essen or Berlin are captured.

The many unused wonders could still be placed strategically. As I said, I think there should be a useful wonder in Lille to bait the Germans. The science wonders should be given to the US, and if you decide to give one of the naval wonders to somebody else, either Gibraltar or Malta should be given another wonder to still make them enticing targets. And Darwin's Voyage should be buildable by the US.

Don't forget to toggle the total war flag so democracies can freely declare war.

[McMonkey]

@Eurisko

1, Cavalry are mainly used by the Russians who historically had a huge cavalry force which were very useful. I have not finalised their stats yet but I intend them to be a fast infantry units with slightly less combat power. This will give the Russians a useful unit for scouting and grabbing key terrain, such as hills and mountains. The Russian player may not chose to carry on producing more cavalry but the existing units should be worth keeping.

2, I will definitely vary the unit stats, I have just not got round to doing that yet. British and American Infantry will be Amphibious and possibly more mobile to represent their organic transport. Russian Infantry will be cheaper to produce. German Infantry will have greater staying power and so on...

3, I don't think Turkey is irrelevant to a WWII scenario. If I could have added them as a nation I would have but the CivII engine will only permit 7 players. Turkey very skillfully managed to remain neutral until the dying days of the conflict but if they had joined on either side the conflict may have turned out a lot different. Germany considered sending troops through Asia Minor to attack the Middle East and link up with the Africa Corps. Churchill put in huge amounts of effort and resources to try and persuade Turkey to join the Allies or at the very least resist any German invasion. I'm afraid the Turkish cities stay

4, There is no room for more US cities. If I could make a larger map then I would include them as well as the rest of Scandinavia. Actually if there was no limit to the map size then I would probably have a crack at making a world map at 1:1 scale so the limit is probably a good thing

The US should be able to build and support plenty of units to send to Europe as they are an little risk of invasion.

5, I think there are enough cities in Spain to represent the Civil War. Of course I would like to include more but again the limits stop me. I'm glad you like the idea of the SCW. It has been omitted from most scenarios but I think it is a very important chapter in the lead up to the main war.

All the nations can get involved and test their troops and tactics without having to spark a full scale war. This should liven up the early part of the game where most players will be busy building up their armies and trading. It will be interesting if the Republicans win and Communism gains a foothold in the west. If the Nationalists win then there will be the possibility of a Spanish/German attack on Gibraltar.

6, I'm really keen to keep the naval wonders in these two key locations. Yes Britain will have a big advantage but this should spur the Axis on to wrestle control of the seas from them by capturing these vital outposts.

7, Obsoleting the Blitzkreig experience wonder later in the war may be a good idea but if the war plays out historically with Britain, the USA and the USSR battering Germany from all directions then they will probably need the veteran troops to stand a chance. I will think that over!

8, I may have to give the science wonders to the US to keep them in the technology race. Once everything is in place I will play a few quick 7 player hotseat games by myself to see how things pan out without a war. The real test will be the first PBEM!

Thanks for the input. I will consider it all in my grand plan and will certainly implement some of it

[Eurisko]

Btw, is it intended that the minor axis can't build any kind of plane or tank?