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  • @AGRICOLA
    Yeah, I do usually copy before I press submit reply in case IE crashes. Sods law that I always forget when posting a mammoth reply

    @Elensar
    If I was playing as the US and wanted to send a convoy to Britain I would simply stack all my transports under a large number of Battleships and Cruisers. That way the Germans would have to slip lots of submarines past the Destroyer and Bomber screen and even then they would probably only scratch the paint on a few capital ships. Such suicidal tactics could not be sustained for long by the Germans who would probably abandon the Atlantic campaign and concentrate on building army units leaving the Allies in control of the seas.

    During the war the Battle of the Atlantic was a hard fought slog for both sides. New tactics had to be evolved and both sides came close to victory. Stackable terrain would just play into the hands of the Allies and effectively eliminate the Atlantic as a theatre of operations.

    @Eurisko
    I took the simplest option first and simply doubles the Attack/Defence of all ships and give them the AEGIS flag (Cruisers were doubled + 10 A/D). Upon testing this seems to work out very well. Ships can still fight each other, bombers can inflict some damage on Battleships but they survive the majority of the time. Destroyers and Subs are vulnerable from air attack which is realistic. Battleships can conduct coastal bombardments on cities with no Coastal defences but come to grief when attacking well protected ports. Submarines can do a lot of damage when they get through making U-Boat warfare a real option for the Germans, especially if they defeat France and start getting event spawned units in the French Atlantic coast cities. 2-3 Submarines will take out a Battleship and any Transports stacked underneath will be sent to the bottom of the sea!

    New ship stats:
    Submarine, nil, 2, 12.,0, 60a,12d, 3h,2f, 6, 0, 2, nil, 010000000001000
    Destroyer, nil, 2, 12.,0, 32a,32d, 3h,1f, 6, 0, 2, nil, 110000000000000
    Cruiser, nil, 2, 10.,0, 50a,50d, 3h,2f, 8, 0, 2, nil, 010000000000000
    Battleship, nil, 2, 8.,0, 72a,72d, 4h,2f, 16,0, 2, nil, 010000000000000
    Aircraft Carrier, nil, 2, 8.,0, 6a, 54d, 4h,2f, 16,0, 2, nil, 010000010000000

    I have increased the subs range to 12 to make it more effective. If Germany can take Brest, Nantes and Bordeaux they should be able to slip their U-Boats into the Atlantic quite easily. Some will be sunk by patrolling bombers from Plymouth, but the majority should get through, I hope.
    Last edited by McMonkey; August 7, 2008, 05:55.
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    • I earnestly would want that houseruled out. Crusiers, not so much. But battleships on convoy duty is missing how battleships were too important for that.

      (Though, that requires at least a loose simulation of what the "more important" stuff is.)

      If only there was a way to make battleships really vulnerable to submarines (but not vulnerable in general). Then they'd be kept far out of the reach of subs, and heavily escorted by destroyers.

      I'm just musing there. If somethign strikes, great. If not, well, okay.

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      • But Battleships are vulnerable to subs. Just been testing the new stats and two subs can sink a Battleship. This will force the player to patrol like mad to try and stop any subs getting through.

        I understand what you mean about BBs not being used for escort duties but if they are in the game and are the best defensive sea unit the player will use them. Can't see any way round that bar a house rule which I don't want to do! If you have a brain wave then please let me know
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        • Making them horrifically expensive (relative to their effect in game), rare (at the start), and occasionally necessary would, with that level of vulnerability, and possibly torpedos (missiles), definately make risking them done only if actually necessary.

          That might do it.

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          • Btw, one of the most effective strategies against submarines was basically the real-life equivalent of stacking, the convoy system.

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            • fyi

              In the 2nd world war, battleships WERE used for convoy duty. Pearl harbor survivors were refitted and used to escort convoys from Pearl to the mainland in wartime. When the Bismarck was loose, the HMS Rodney had to be pulled off its convoy to join the chase.
              Lost in America.
              "a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
              "or a very good liar." --Stefu
              "Jesus" avatars created by Mercator and Laszlo.

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              • The British used older battleships on convoy escort duty all the time, until the German capital ships were sunk.

                edit: LOL. Cross-post!
                Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios

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                • Excellent, then no solution is needed
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                  • Then if they're suitably expensive, vulnerable, and useful the only problem with stackable ocean is the cargo floating in midsea.

                    Playabilitywise, how big a problem is that?

                    The goal is to keep the contents of the supply ships from reaching Europe. Actually destroying it is not necessary.

                    The only problem I can think of is that a player could (would?) send empty transport ships to go to the location where the ships were sunk, and "pick up" the sleeping units.

                    Making that house ruled against would not be particularly onerous, as its obviously abusing a game feature. If that's the only problem, that is.

                    Mind, I'm not a huge fan of stackable ocean per se. I just don't like the idea that one ship being sunk sinks the rest even more.

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                    • If you only had transports stacked under the Battleships they would be dead meat anyway once their escort was gone. If anyone is stupid enough to stack large numbers of capital ships on one square then they deserve to lose them all!
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                      • As to transports...usually. But it wouldn't be "Escort sunk = convoy sunk."

                        As to stacking capital ships...why?

                        Historical movementwise, a fleet pasing through the English channel should not be right next to the coast on both ends unless its set to a very dispersed formation. Having ships spread out with the width the channel can have in Civ will quite easily lead to that.

                        Battlewise, Jutland (no WWII clashes of battleships, but a capital ship is a capital ship.) would have involved "stacking" in Civ terms.

                        Am I missing something?

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                        • I don't like stackable Ocean and I will not be using it!

                          There are pros and cons to stackable or non-stackable but my mind is made up now
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                          • Fair enough.

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                              • So, any progress on this one?

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