The Bloody Monk HOF Celebration Succession Game!!!

[SlowThinker]

Short-term points for next player:
Diplomacy:
you might want a map from Japanese (Osaka is not visible), but they seem to be hardly accessible for trade.
I suggest not to take Horses and Poly (Key Civ have/will have these techs)

You will be asked to choose next tech, be ready.

Defense:
We have enough gold to bribe a Barb Archer (41 now, about 64 in the beginning of next turn), but roads should be finished and each group of cities should have their own diplomate that will be ready to act immediately (only diplomat is in Seville).
It looks only sea barbs are dangerous, and I hope I am not mistaken and they come with a single Archer and a stack, and that a single Archer will be available for bribery and will kill the stack.
The Madrid-Strabo-Valencia area is protected by our chariot.

HG:
I don't know if Valencia or Strabo is better for the SSC, anyway the SSC should build HG. It may be done in about 5 turns: two vans exist already and are approaching (from Bar+Sal), Strabo and Valencia are supposed to build two more caravans, but (partial) rushbuys are expected in order to speed it up.
Americans are building

Settlers:
There is a pre-worked settler south from Strabo, it was expected to build a road south and connect Barcelona (probably to build a bridge-city on 78,26).
The one at 72,14 is pre-worked and was expected to build a road at 70,14.
The one at 71,17 is not pre-worked and was expected to build a road at 70,20.

Valencia and Strabo prepare caravans for HG, Saragosa builds a dip, but goal of other cities is unclear (they have a lot of shields cumulated so you should decide early).

[SlowThinker]

I didn't send a screenshot, as I built no new city. Only some roads were added and new eastern areas were uncovered.

Mid/long-term goals from my point of view:

SSC (HG should be placed there)
I noticed some talks about Strabo/Valencia, but I don't understand which one you prefer?
Strabo has access to 8 ocean squares and 2 silks
Valencia has access to 3 ocean squares and 4 silks
Valencia requires more work (unforest); Valencia seems better in long term-view (SuperHighways allows Silk with 7 arrows, doesn't it?), Strabo in mid-term view.


Science is set to 30%, taxes are maximized. We have most vital techs and there are many areas where we want to invest our shield and gold:

* HG is prepared (5 more turns needed), this is "a must" IMO.
* HG will allow new cities (and many warriors will get free), we may want many cities (at least 18 under monarchy) in order to get black faces and let HG work fully.
* we can start to trade:
for example Gems from Madrid (celebrating under Monarchy) to Kells should yield 300 (gold+beakers). cap will cut the revenue to 200, so we may prefer to wait with this delivery.
but Strabo + Valencia + Barcelona supplies hides, and Indians and other western people want it. Hides supply/demand is never blocked, so we might set regular deliveries, maybe a shipchain later (be aware, hides supply may be lost after cities grows or new techs are acquired; but in Strabo+Val+Barc hides are at top of the supply list, and both cities did feed a wonder now, so supply was refreshed and hides still last. So there is a good chance they will last more).
* we should think about The Republic and WLTxD growth (but we should prepare more cities first IMO).
Verrucosus, The Republic is easier than you think. Cities need no garison, especially if there are no sea barbs with move 2. Yes, the Chapel is very important for large cities under The Republic. But I think it is a waste to concentrace to growth over size 3 under Monarchy. Use Monarchy rather to build many size-3 cities with some food (Irr.) and arrows (roads) around (in order to allow the wltxd growth). When size-3 cities are ready, switch to Republic.
Trade is effective even with most cities at size 3, especialy in our case when we have 2x hides supply (it is sufficient if only Strabo+Val go over size 3)
* In case we want to wltxd-grow many cities, we must prepare them. Pyramids can help a lot.

My view:
Now we should start a heavy trade based mainly on hides that go west. Ideally we may produce 3 hides vans per turn soon and obtain 600+ gold + 1 techs per turn. There is a danger the hides supply/demand stops but there is a good chance at least a part of the hides bussiness will be preserved. It will be ideal if we are able to feed a shipchain constantly.
There is a risk we build an expensive shipchain and then all hides dissapear, but in that case we may use this shipchain for an intercontinental trade with our new colonies in western lands (sooner or later we will need colonies anyway)
This project will need completion of roads, ships and maybe creation of new Silks.

IMO other projects may be delayed (maybe except WoWs in case AI wants them):
We should stay under monarchy until many 3-sized cities are ready, then wltxd under The Republic. Simultaneously we can wltxd the SSC.

[Bloody Monk]

Looking at the Log post

@SlowThinker

--Good job!! But, why not play some more turns; you only played 6. Take it up to 10 turns if you have time, or 20, depending on your mood. Probably go to 10 turns for the next player.

--I think we can skip Horse but getting Poly is necessary for Mike's Chapel. That will really help our system wide unhappiness problems as we grow. Same with skipping the Wheel, hoping an AI can be induced to research Engineering (which we will need for Med ( Shake), and Masonry hoping someone will build Construction (Aquaducts). I'd recommend against Pyramids unless we also build Mike's. The growth from ubiquitous Granaries would be hard to deal with, requiring Lux settings above zero.

--Looking at our techs, we should be offered choices from List 1 & 2, with the 0 group blank this turn. I would go with Philosophy because we are not ready for Republic until either massive Temple building or Mike's. To get Mono as the free choice we need to trade for Poly while researching Phil.

--I would say Valencia for the SSC. With the hidden special at (86,20), either a Wheat or Silk, Val will provide the most arrows. So, HG next in Val...Amer are building the GL.

--Settlers Do we need a "bridge city at (78,26)?? We can build a bridge there eventually. That Sett, at (79,23) could be the first of many to be sent to road-up and open the hidden special around Val. You know what I would say about the Sett at (72,14). Build a city at (71,13), or wait and Mine the Grapes now.

The game is yours if you want to continue.

Monk

Edit To add: Yes Purple is our Key Civ as long as we are Supreme.

[SlowThinker]

I have filled my last post, pls read it.

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BM, I think we should talk at this point, this is why I sent 6 turns only. And also I'll go to bed soon.

One day we will need Poly but I think we can skip it now. From other point of view the "Key Civ case" and more expensive techs is not an extremely importamt issue. We can afford expensive techs, especially once we need Mike.

Pyramids can help to grow small cities, but you don't have to grow the large ones. Too much of food is not a burden, you can throw it away: simply put workers to forests or ocean.

I would go for The Republic now: then we can give it to AIs and have larger trade revenues.

"bridge city at (78,26)": I rank movement very high: you save an additional defense-dip in Barcelona (a dip from Strabo can arrive to Barca with 1/3 movepoint left and bribe immediately), any production of Barcelona (hides vans) and the new bridge-city is accelerated by 1 turn.
I think the mining of new Silks can wait until they will really help to increase delivery bonuses from Strabo+Valencia.

BM said: "Build a city at (71,13), or wait and Mine the Grapes now"
IMO mining the grapes is not effective enough. If you move a worker from forest to mined grape in Sevilla then you get 4 arrows + 1 shield per turn. For all that you will pay 10 turns of work of a settler. It is more effective to use the settler for a new city, especially now, when HG will be completed and we need black faces/trireme production etc.
I slightly prefer 69,13 over 71,13: With 71,13 you need a settler spends at least 6 turns in order to connect Salamanca with roads besides the river. It is true 71,13 produces 2 more food, but also 2 less arrows.

[-Jrabbit]

Kibbutzing without benefit of knowledge:

HG, then Colossus should be rushed -- obviously both in the SSC. I like to snatch the GL when possible, to prevent the AI civs from pacing with us as we extend our tech lead through TRADE, TRADE, TRADE. The proceeds should be used to fund the needed temples as we prepare for Republic. I'm in total agreement that a WLTMonk growth phase should be a target.

But for now, more camels, more settlers, more cities. Get the key WoWs and start pumping those Hides!

Techs: Looks like the key tech at this point is Philosophy.
Oh, and mine that Wine! The Monk speaks true!!

[-Jrabbit]

Just had a thought:

I seem to recall that the key to cross-platform successions was for everyone to ZIP the .sav file when posting.

Can someone post a save, any save, as a zipped file? Maybe that's the key...

[SlowThinker]

GL?? Noooo!
We don't want bad techs.
And we would like an AI pacing with us in techs, as they may work for us as slaves then.

Colossus - yes, but only after it is really needed. The science cap will cut the revenues of first vans anyway.

(Just view of an subnormal Hofer :-) )

The zipped one is attached.

[SlowThinker]

Oh, I forgot Philosophy is a free tech... but will we be allowed to take The Republic then?

If not then The Republic is better than Philo: if the AI gets philosophy first then we can simply trade for it and we lose nothing.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
I have filled my last post, pls read it.

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BM, I think we should talk at this point, this is why I sent 6 turns only. And also I'll go to bed soon.

So we will discuss and you will finish tomorrow?? Or do you intend handing the game off now??

One day we will need Poly but I think we can skip it now. From other point of view the "Key Civ case" and more expensive techs is not an extremely importamt issue. We can afford expensive techs, especially once we need Mike.

I do not understand, ST. Perhaps it is a language thing. What is 'expensive techs'??

As for not needing Poly, it is a prerequisite for Mono from which we can build Mike's Chapel. You saying we don't need the Chapel?? If we aren't going for Mono now, what is your research plan beyond Republic. Keep in mind that we don't even have a boat yet so getting Republic to boost trade with the AI is not needed yet.

Pyramids can help to grow small cities, but you don't have to grow the large ones. Too much of food is not a burden, you can throw it away: simply put workers to forests or ocean.

Putting workers on trees will also cost arrows, slowing research. I think it may cause happiness problems for some players, but it is your turnset, so build it if you like. We will need Temples quickly, especially if we skip Mike's.

I would go for The Republic now: then we can give it to AIs and have larger trade revenues.

That's a good plan; I just think we pick up Republic later. However, if you chose to go Republic now, it will give us trade bait to get Poly which you could choose after Republic. Do what you will.

"bridge city at (78,26)": I rank movement very high: you save an additional defense-dip in Barcelona (a dip from Strabo can arrive to Barca with 1/3 movepoint left and bribe immediately), any production of Barcelona (hides vans) and the new bridge-city is accelerated by 1 turn.
I think the mining of new Silks can wait until they will really help to increase delivery bonuses from Strabo+Valencia.

I don't like it; here's why. Valencia will be grown to cover all the tiles in its radius. That means Strabo will be squeezed. It will need to work those plains tiles below it. Building your bridge city will then squeeze Strabo from both ends, AND squeeze Barcelona. Is this worth it??

BM said: "Build a city at (71,13), or wait and Mine the Grapes now"
IMO mining the grapes is not effective enough. If you move a worker from forest to mined grape in Sevilla then you get 4 arrows + 1 shield per turn. For all that you will pay 10 turns of work of a settler. It is more effective to use the settler for a new city, especially now, when HG will be completed and we need black faces/trireme production etc.
I slightly prefer 69,13 over 71,13: With 71,13 you need a settler spends at least 6 turns in order to connect Salamanca with roads besides the river. It is true 71,13 produces 2 more food, but also 2 less arrows.

Building on (69,13) leaves the already irrigated 'dotted' grass tile an unused orphan; plus, you are building on plains (costing a food). I agree, right now the line of communication requires wasting a turn. Step off the river into the city at (71,13). Next turn, everything rolls. When we get Bridgebuilding all problems are resolved. Consider at that time, where is the best site for that city. Yes, there is some delay. We need Construction but one of the AI is already researching IronWorks. We need Construction for Valencia's Aquaduct anyway, so I don't think the delay will be that long.

As for mining the Grapes, I like to get the arrows when emphasizing shields. But that's me. I agree that another city, now, is a good idea. Just remember, wherever you build it to send a warrior along for martial law.

Slow, I can't tell you how much pleasure I am getting from discussing Civ2 again. Thanks.

Monk (I'm getting tired too. See you in the morning.)

[Bloody Monk]

@ _Jrabbit

I think zipping the save was the key. Hope that works.

I have to agree with ST; we should avoid the GL. It will only slow us down. It is a minor irritant that the GL AI gets free techs, but if are lucky, that will spur then to research something for us.

@ST

Yep. Col is more productive after Val grows to 4-5 and we have some roads in place. That's why mining the grass to reveal the hidden special is a good idea sooner rather than later.

Philosophy gives us a free tech, if we get it first. But this tech choice is a non-zero listing. That means nothing from the 1 list will be offered next time. Republic (and Mono) is a 1. It will not be offered next unless something is traded for. But the only thing we really need right now is Poly--if we are going after Mono. So, if you must have Republic soon, pick it to research next. Hopefully, none of the AI will research Philosophy before we can get to it. It is not true to say, 'if the AI gets Phil first, we lose nothing.' We would lose a free tech.

Monk

[SlowThinker]

I think anybody can take game now and play, but I would suggest more talk first, as this is an important point. (So you can consider my play finished, although I might add some more turns tomorrow in case nobody starts to play).

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ST said "We can afford expensive techs, especially once we need Mike."

I wanted to say we could ignore the Spain-KeyCiv relationship and not to focus on getting cheap techs (by having less techs than the Key Civ). I think Mike would be more important than those saved beakers.

I think we don't need Mike NOW, and there is more important stuff now - to get the hides bussiness working (vans, triremes, roads, later Silk/Colossus if it will increase the revenues).

I agree we don't need to switch to The Republic now (maybe after 20 turns), but we want that AIs switch to Republic.

BM said: "If we aren't going for Mono now, what is your research plan beyond Republic."
I have no plan, we need no tech in near future. My plan is to keep science low, so no new techs will come now (only after first deliveries).

"We will need Temples quickly, especially if we skip Mike's."
Temples are expensive, 4 vans is much better than 5 temples. There is no need to grow cities over size 3 (maybe except the hides cities), as it brings only expenses and problems. So don't grow them (use non+food squares or build settlers for new cities).

New bridge squeezing Strabo and Barcelona: you can simply keep Bridge small, or disband it if you get BridgeBuilding. Anyway these problems will happen after 40 turns or so.

69,13 vs. 71,13
BM said "Building on (69,13) leaves the already irrigated 'dotted' grass tile an unused orphan; plus, you are building on plains (costing a food)."
Yes, I mentioned you get +2 food per turn.
But 69,13 gives you +2 arrows on the river. And you should road two more plains besides the river.

BM said "When we get Bridgebuilding all problems are resolved. "
We need smooth traffic soon (defense, hides vans travelling to western, any other traffic)

BM said "I agree that another city, now, is a good idea. Just remember, wherever you build it to send a warrior along for martial law."
HG will be finished sooner very likely.

BM said "It is not true to say, 'if the AI gets Phil first, we lose nothing.' We would lose a free tech."
I disagree resolutely. Philosophy from the AI is that free tech .

[Bloody Monk]

@Slow,

Well we don't agree on everything; but, that's what makes Civ2 Succession Games so interesting. Actually, we do agree on not becoming a Republic any time soon, and on building HG next. And your post on midterm goals, emphasizing Trade is Super. To facilitate that, the Camels can be switched to Triremes (in M'ville and Saragossa)...or wait and begin building boats later. I agree with Trade as a focus so we need boats.

However...
--Building on a river = +1 arrow, not two
--"Smooth traffic" is not stopped by one turn delay to step onto or off the river
--It seemed to me you wanted to build a road and a new city rather soon, to create "smooth traffic". If you are planning to wait until HG, then, you are right that a warrior is unnecessary.
--Building a city, to disband later, so movement is enhanced is wasteful--to me.
--I'd prefer size 5 cities for the increased shields/arrows; that explains my fixation on the Chapel. Size 3 cities don't need it, I agree.
--I still don't understand the point about 'expensive techs'.
--Once deliveries start some idea about a tech path plan will be necessary. The choices will come quickly.
--We are playing for Spaceship landing so Long-term view on SSC choice at Valencia is right, in my opinion. To do this in a timely way we need many more Setts to clear trees and make roads. And soon.
--And sure enough, there is a very nice site, with 2 specials at (89,15). It completes the 2-4-2 pattern.

Anyway...
If I understand your main choices we will...
--Research Republic next, then (unknown)
--Build HG, then Pyramids
--Begin Trading with Indians, etc quickly, before Hides supply dries up.

This sounds like a good plan. Go for it and have fun.

Monk

PS: Pretty sure that the "ideal road/rr path" between Sal and Val goes thru (71,13). A city there would act as a station eliminating the need for the rest of the road being exact. Just saying....

[SlowThinker]

Again, just my view:

BM said "--Building on a river = +1 arrow, not two"
Both workers of 69,13 would work on the river (3 arrows), while 71,13 would produce 1 arrow only. So 2 arrows difference.

BM said "--"Smooth traffic" is not stopped by one turn delay to step onto or off the river"
Without a connection river-road systems, 1-move units lose 2/3 of a turn, caravans from Val and Strabo lose 1 full turn (the way from Strabo/Val to Saragossa is 15/18). Any trireme cargo of a value 3x200g will be delayed by 1 turn, this represents 30g at a 5% interest rate.

BM said "--I'd prefer size 5 cities for the increased shields/arrows; that explains my fixation on the Chapel. Size 3 cities don't need it, I agree."
I could justify size 5 cities only if you need arrows for some continuous and fery rewarding trade.
The shields and arrows themselves are too expensive:
Let us say you grow a city from size 3 to 5 and you put workers to 2 Grslands. You get net 2 shields per turn (all food is eaten), all that for 40 shields (temple / Mike at 10 cities) + 90 food. Any surplus food is nearly wasted in this city, as you need 60 food in order to grow further.
Now let us say you build a settler in that 3-sized city and build a new city on a grassland with a forest (not a very fertile spot). You get net 3 shields + 1 food + 1 arrow (2 food is eaten), all that for 40 shields. You can home 3 units inside and any surplus food has 3 times higher value than in the 5-size city (only 20 food neeed for growth).
Therefore I rate new cities higher than growth of existing cities.
And trade is more effective than construction of new cities.

BM said "--I still don't understand the point about 'expensive techs'."
Cheap techs: if you succeed to have less techs than the Key Civ.
Expensive techs: if you abandon the effort to have less techs than the Key Civ.
I wanted to say it is good to have cheap techs, but some things may be more important (for example Mike later).

BM said "--We are playing for Spaceship landing so Long-term view on SSC choice at Valencia is right, in my opinion. To do this in a timely way we need many more Setts to clear trees and make roads. And soon."
I disagree with last two words. The Republic/wltMonkd is still far away.

Anyway...
If I understand your main choices we will...
--Research Republic next, then (unknown)
--Build HG, then Pyramids
--Begin Trading with Indians, etc quickly, before Hides supply dries up.

My idea is
--Research Republic next, then (unknown)
--Build HG
--Begin Trading with Indians, etc quickly. Keep cities small, build only settlers / new cities if there is nothing else that could help Trading with Indians.
--in case of exigency (more arrows required for better revenues) grow hides cities to size 4-5 / make Silk around / build Colossus

later (once we have enough of funds from Trading with Indians):
--build more cities (question is how many?) and grow them to size 3(Pyramids may be effective, but only if many cities were built), then switch to Republic, use wltMonkd (+Mike etc)

---

I am hesitating to add more turns now, we are on a cross-road and rather the next player should make the decisions needed.
(I 'decided' the Marco already...)

[Verrucosus]

Four more turns! Seriously, while it's a great idea to interrupt a turnset to allow discussion about key decisions, there is no need to step down early and waive a large part of your turns. Your plan is certainly reasonable.

The question of city growth has been thoroughly debated and the difference of opinion is mostly one of timing. I'd prefer to start building temples and preferably going for Philosophy/Monotheism now, so that we have the infrastructure for a decent population boom in place once we switch to the Republic. Letting the cities grow in the meantime and earn a few more shields and arrows is an incidental benefit of that plan. The main advantage of your approach is that we do not have to divert shields or money to temples allowing us to concentrate even more on caravans.

Speaking of which, given that all of our opponents have Bronze Working, I would (after the Hanging Gardens, of course) want to build the Colossus sooner rather than later. I would certainly not try to snatch the Great Library from the Americans both because, as already mentioned, unwanted techs would increase our tech costs, and because they might suddenly switch to the Colossus. (Could they do this anyway?)

I had completely forgotten how much more complex this game gets once tech trading and trade routes come into play. I've started to read the "cost of tech thread" and I will have to read up on trade routes as well.

[-Jrabbit]

Once the Pyramids are gone, Colossus is often high on the AI acquisition list (given that we already have MPE and HG). I agree that getting 4 camels to the SSC for this purpose should be high on our priority list.