The Bloody Monk HOF Celebration Succession Game!!!

[SlowThinker]

BM, I wouldn't like a city on 71,13 because it prevents to have a smooth road system: it is better to be able to build on the river end.

My analyse/plans (comments awaited):
No need to grow cities now, cities will be grown easily by wltxd (IMO the cities are needlessly large now: the correct timing is to grow them to size 3 only when they are wltxd ready). So workers should be replaced to shields.
I think we are happy that we have only 2 red cities now (with 9 cities we should have 50% of cities red), so no more should be built. We should wait with new cities until HG is finished or nearly finished.
The main goal now: Marco Polo. It should be placed in any city where 6 caravans may get fastest: this will be some central city.
Defense: we have more than 7 cities, so no defense bonus against barbs. Our cities seem fragile now, but I think we must hope naval barbs won't land on some unpleasant area. A best measure is to complete the road system.

A related question: I forgot: sea barbs land with three units? Two stacked and one single? Then a dip should be sufficient - bribe the single barb then kill the stack.

Edit: Science may be minimized to 40%, we have all needed techs and we need to maximize gold in order to accelerate production now. (We also need to wait until Marco Polo so that we don't research a tech that may be obtained from an AI).

[Verrucosus]

SlowThinker's argument against addtional cities at this point is convincing.

I am not entirely on board with his plan to hold back (vertical) growth now and grow them later through celebrations. I have used that option enthusiastically in my own games, the last one admittedly having been some time ago now, but I always allowed cities to grow beyond size 2 as long as I could prevent riots. In order to grow through celebrations, we need a republican government which also removes martial law. Without temples in place, any celebration should come to a halt pretty soon. Building temples under Republic takes longer, because there is no more free support and (even after disbanding unnecessary garrisons in core cities) a large percentage of a small city's production would be used for support. Buying temples is possible, but that trade might as well be spent on science. That's why I tend to allow cities to grow up to size four/five even under Monarchy, use a low luxury rate to keep them in balance after switching to Republic and start a pop boom through celebrations only after another happiness wonder, preferably the Chapel, is in place.

None of this is to say that we should now build temples across the board. (I think only Valencia needs one at this point.) However, the transition from (primarily) horizontal to vertical growth is an important phase and I hope to learn more about the thinking behind other ways of dealing with it than the one that I have become used to.

P.S.: I would have to check, but I think four caravans will do for Marco Polo. If we use some surplus income to rush them in low production cities, we can get there very quickly.

[SlowThinker]

You are right, only 4 vans are needed for Marco.

Marco will provide us much useful information and only then we will be able to develop correct plan. So I will play now, complete Marco Polo, and then we can talk more.
I guess HG will be next goal anyway, so I will expect more caravans will be needed.

[Verrucosus]

More caravans are always needed. Good luck and have fun!

[defrancoj]

Has anybody "called the ball" at this point? I'm not very familiar with the procedure/rules on that, but I would like to get a turnset in either within the next few hours or on monday morning, since I'll be working a 24 hr period in between. Having read the discussion of short-term goals and having made a fresh install of MGE, I'm ready to try my hand.

[SlowThinker]

defrancoj, I am playing now. Marco will be completed after about 6 turns of my play (soon), I will post gathered info.
My idea was we should debate the position then.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
I would love to be next but the .sav is coming up blank on download.
Will dredge up another machine this weekend and pray.

Played a iittle "getting to know you" Civ2 this evening. Amazing how much one forgets...

In the meantime, someone else should jump in. Monk? (After all, you're the honoree...)

@_Jr

Hope you can find a box that will allow your play. You could load and play but not d/l a readable save (I read it fine, btw). There is a faint twig from our former days about Mac difficulties/ solutions. It might have involved changing the name of the save somehow ( the '.sav' part, maybe removing something).

Now some process stuff. We are having a queuing 'problem'--woo hoo, btw; glad to see so much interest. I need your help, _Jr, with part of my solution. Will you please edit/add names, in the first post, of new players expressing interest in playing?? Thank you.

I, or you, will then update the player list after each posted turnset, showing the order of those who have played. While this is strictly speaking a free for all, I would like to see new players get a chance to play before previous players play again. Is that okay with everyone?? To facilitate this, we should have a second list of players who chime in after someone has called the ball by saying " I would like to be next," while the game is out. In order to keep the game moving, folk on that second list will get priority to play next if they call the game after the new save is posted.

Please add defrancoj and sharkbait to the first post list. Verrucosus, do you want to play, or just kibitz?? Either is great.

It appears SlowThinker is playing now. Which would have been my decision because he "signed up" in the beginning. Good luck with the game, Slow. If, as it seems likely, ST finishes soon, AND defrancoj is quick to respond after Slow posts the save, then I lean toward defrancoj playing after ST. Just call the ball. I really would like to keep things moving if we can.

If there continues to be such a large amount of participation, having a soft roster is worth consideration. To make that work, folk will have to commit to playing in a reasonable time when their slot comes up. New players can be added in by request, no problem. What do you guys think??

Monk

[Verrucosus]

I would like to play if this game lasts into December which is not at all certain the way things are going. For the moment, I'm very happy to just kibitz!

[Verrucosus]

Sorry, double post!

[Bloody Monk]

Commentary

@SlowThinker

I know you have already started...
--agree completely about roads over more cities for now
--agree with the Slider shift to Taxes over Science; with MPE lots of Science will be available. The only downside is if nobody wants what we have for trade because we didn't research enough.
--Speaking of shields--mine the Grapes
-- for Marco Polo
--new cities must included a walk-along warrior at this stage. IIRC, there is a 50% chance of a red face and/or a sympathetic red face in an existing city. So if we were to build 4 new cities, I would expect all to need an immediate warrior AND two existing cities would have a red face.
--you said: "BM, I wouldn't like a city on 71,13 because it prevents to have a smooth road system: it is better to be able to build on the river end."

I disagree with this. A city on the grass between the river and the roaded Grapes would speed up communication over a city on one of the river tiles (One step -v- two). And if you are suggesting a city be built on a 'dotted' grass, where a clean grass is available, well, for me, that would be as close to a 'sin' that I might make in Civ2. I would never forgive myself if I wasted a shield by building there; you I would forgive, no problem.

--you said: "A related question: I forgot: sea barbs land with three units? Two stacked and one single? Then a dip should be sufficient - bribe the single barb then kill the stack."

Yes, but only if they just arrived. If they landed at the other end of the island the single barb may have 'vanished" already, or gone in another direction. We really need to uncover that part of the map.

@Verrucosus

--I would say no huts until Monarchy is finished being researched. At the point where one already has chosen the 'extra' tech, any Advance from a hut will delay FINISHING Monarchy. Even if one is currently researching it, more time will be added to its completion. You will see they beaker indicator go from red to yellow, showing more beakers are needed.

-- City Sites

I would build cities tighter together, (86,24) then (85,29), then (82,36) much later. That in the area you noted. I still maintain there is a good site to be uncovered to the NE of Madrid with 2 specials.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

The Playbill

Played so far:
1) Bloody Monk
2)rjm
3)DaveV
4)SlowThinker now playing

Waiting to Play
_Jrabbit if a working computer is found
defrancoj
Sharkbait
then
Straybow, Elephant, all others who have yet to raise their interest.

I believe that's the order of folk asking in currently. I would say, allow a few hours for general discussion and for those on the list above you to jump in. If folk can't play for a day and someone else can play now, playing NOW should take precedence. _Jr, do you have a timetable for determining your ability to play??

[rubs hands in anticipation]Let's see what feast SlowThinker places before us.[/really enjoying this]
Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Having a senior moment...

Can someone please remind me how to make a screenshot and edit it for attachment. I only have Paint. Thx,

Monk

[SlowThinker]

Press the PrintScreen key, open Paint, choose File/New from the menu, insert from the clipboard by Ctrl-V, mark a rectangle you want to cut, copy to clipboard with Ctrl-C, again choose choose File/New from the menu, insert from the clipboard by Ctrl-V.

[JCP]

A single word after a long absence.
What a fine idea, this SG in honor of Monk HOFisation.

[SlowThinker]

The log:

1100
taxes 70%
some workers moved to shielded tiles
Seville, Strabo, Valencia and Madrid work for Marco. Marco will be completed after 6 turns.
shall Salamanca grow to size 3 now? One warrior will be blocked in the city, but we have free warriors in Sar and Sev, so let us grow Sal.

1050
a barb chariot killed our warrior; a retaliation: the barb stack (char+leader) was killed by our chariot (I didn't see a way how to get a ransom now - we would need a well defended unit in order to kill the chariot by defending against its 4.5 attack; an idea: our Phalanx moves to east to serve as a target for barbs in case there is a spawn-area here.
a warrior is returning to Valencia to accomplish martial law

1000-925
nothing important, 4 cities are working hard on MPE, others are only cumulating shields without a clear plan, plans should be prepared after Marco Polo.

900
MPE completed

---

MPE info:
Celts: Horses, WarrCode (researching MapMak)
Japanese: Horses, MapMak, Masonry, Poly, WarrCode (r. Wheel)
Vikings:Horses, Masonry (r. Math)
Americans: Lit, MapMak, WarrCode (r. Pottery)
Greeks: Horses, MapMak, Masonry, Poly, WarrCode (r. Iron)
Indians: Horses, MapMak, Myst (researching Poly)

No contact among them, except a war Vikings-Japans and Greeks-Japans. So they should be unable to trade techs themselves.

It looks we want MapMaking, Mystism, Literacy now. We should refuse other techs, maybe except Masonry (Pyramids).
Indians are the Key civ (I hope I remember the theory correctly...). We need to give them all our techs and not to get their techs if possible, right? (Poly is not necessary for a Spaceship game, also Horses may be delayed)

---

(Now cost of Mysticism is 150 beakers, we are researching the 10th tech, the multiplier is 15. Let us send some envoys...)
Japans - they request pottery or face consequences, pottery given, peace, tech trades: they don't want currency, traded monarchy for Map Making, their patience is lost
Celts - peace, given techs: mapmaking, writing, exchanged maps.
Vikings - peace, given tech: mapmaking, exchanged maps.
Americans: peace, exchanged Literacy for Trade (I am not sure if I didn't accelerate their speed of WoW construction, but I think they don't build wonders from caravans), given tech: Monarchy, exchanged maps.
(Americans are researching GL, we were carefull not to give them Pottery, as they could switch to HG)
Greeks: Pottery given, peace, Literacy, Currency, Monarchy, Writing, Trade, finally Enthusiastic (they were demanding!), exchanged maps.
(Now cost of Mysticism is 180 beakers, we are researching the 12th tech, the multiplier is 15. Let us visit the Key Civ...)
Indians: traded Mysticism for Lit, Peace, given techs: Trade, Monarchy, Pottery, Writing, Code Of Laws, exchanged maps.
(Now cost of next tech is 195 beakers, we are researching the 13th tech, the multiplier is 15. Samson says in The Cost of Research Explained http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2672 that 15 is a standard multipler, so we are missing the bonus -2 although Indians have one more tech (Horseback riding). Maybe Indians had a starting tech? Or our map size doesn't match the samson's formula?

A note: I made a mistake, I should wait and not to give all techs to Indians now. I delayed their development of Poly. Sorry, brothers.

Summary:
We got all maps, except the Japanese one, but Kyoto is visible on the Greek map.
We got Map Making, Literacy and Mysticism.