The Bloody Monk HOF Celebration Succession Game!!!

[Bloody Monk]

Short Term -v- Mid Term

The ST city -v- the BM city

It seems to me that this kerfuffle is over focus, or attention span. Should the decision be based on short term considerations or longer term benefits??

ST has chided my site choice because it will delay camels getting to Saragossa. By one turn. But is that an unacceptable delay?? Do we now have in place a large number of boats to service an unending supply of camels?? No, we do not. Furthermore, the delay becomes nonexistent after 8 turns of road building. (Plains, 71,11; and trees, 69,11) Roads that I pointed out are the optimal path for a "road bonus" between Salamanca and the SSC (which has the additional advantage of making the BM city a "station" on that path, limiting the need for some 'difficult' roads further along the way).

After those 8 turns of road building, a camel standing on the Grapes will need 4 movement points to reach Salamanca, by either way. Very quickly, long before discovering Bridge Building, the delay argument is mooted. So, the short term argument is not very strong. But, look at the mid term consequences of building on plains instead of grass.

While building on plains gives an extra arrow, it will make it impossible for the ST city to both grow and support a Settler, once we become a Republic. Settlers are going to be a continuing need, for roads, irrigation, to prepare the SSC for sustainable growth, and of course, for more cities. To me, having a more healthy city is more important.

At some point, the longer term, both cities will require irrigating plains to continue growing. To make the 'road' to Saragossa more functional, the next player should think about building on one of those sites.

Which brings me to my ongoing question...Who's next!!

Monk

[-Jrabbit]

I am shocked to learn that we have a stock of 7 camels at hand and HG is not built. (Colossus, too, for that matter).

On your toes, everyone! Bloody Monk is loose, he is on his game, and he is on the muscle!!!

[Verrucosus]

Things are looking good. Defrancoj brought us into the age of trade.

- With all those caravans the next player should get to see two wonder movies for the science city.
- I am relieved to see that we have our continent for ourselves. After SlowThinker had exchanged maps, I was worried about a land bridge to Germany.
- Should we send the Vallalolid trireme west or open a different trade route?
- Should we limit our fleet to one boat per coastal city and rehome as necessary now to allow an easier change of government later in the game?
- In that context, what about a city at 74,10? [ducking for cover] ... I know, I know. Bloody Monk's 71,13 proposal counts as the long-term view in the discussion so far and I would prefer that site over 69,13 for the reasons he has given. However, using the orphaned grassland at 73,13 seems to be the only way to support a city on the other side of the bay of Madrid. That city would never become great, but with a food surplus of two (one from the grassland, one from the fishing square), it could grow at a decent speed and (with a harbour later) participate in celebrations; at maximum size it could work two hills for decent production; also, it would be another coastal city to support a boat. The downside of this would be that we would need yet another road to connect Salamanca, but the upside would be that, in the long term (maybe "too" long term?) the growth of Salamanca and Seville (both of which don't have a great food supply to begin with) will not be limited by a third city squeezed in between.

Originally posted by defrancoj
(650 BC) Turn 10:
The Indians are now "hostile" toward us and they have allied with the Vikings to "contain our aggression. Since Delhi and Madras and other Indian cities are on the coast, this fact shouldn't affect us too much. I hesitate to offer them techs right now because I feel we should have some in reserve for when they inevitably threaten us.

Even given our "supreme" position, the extent of the AI hostility is not what I remember from my own games. This is probably because, when playing on my own, I tend to play 2.42. (No idea why, maybe because of the nice pictures in the civilopedia.) I have read somewhere that the MGE-AI is more hostile. What happens if we ever have nothing left to give to a particular opponent? Which attitude do we need to be reasonably safe from sneak attacks on our boats and caravans (when we want to deliver to inland cities)?

P.S.: I like the "Defranco Wine-Caves" in the turnlog. Too bad we cannot name landmarks à la SMAC. That would also help with the discussion.

[Sharkbait]

I'll take the game if nobody else wants to jump in.

Hope to complete my turns by tomorrow.

Plan:

Settlers, vans, HG then Coll asap, roads (and a few cities), start to improve land about SSC. Hides vans, ships.

BTW - remind me of the value or otherwise of having early domestic trades routes to the SSC. Is it better to have an early foreign one/s that sticks or is it worth throwing a few vans from the bigger home cities to the SSC for the added arrows/gold?

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Sharkbait

BTW - remind me of the value or otherwise of having early domestic trades routes to the SSC. Is it better to have an early foreign one/s that sticks or is it worth throwing a few vans from the bigger home cities to the SSC for the added arrows/gold?

My recollection is that once we have developed our SSC, a demanded good delivered to the SSC gives enough to justify rush building. Now that we have the potential to deliver overseas, I wouldn't bother delivering anything that is not demanded. The exception would be to unblock supply in the SSC. Caravans from the SSC should only be delivered overseas (IMO).

RJM

[Sharkbait]

Actually, I didn't get round to worrying about the domestic routes, but would still like to know.

Anyway, I finished my turns! Write up to follow in full, but here is the save and some brief points of interest,

HG and Coll built, 2 new cities, 6 settlers around (several working on the SSC). I van to be delivered next turn. 9 vans done, 5 food ones next to SSC for Mike's (Mono found).

[SlowThinker]

The problem with early growth of SSC is a risk hides supply may be lost (hides is always more likely in small cities).

[DaveV]

For reference, here's spain at 400BC:



And here's the world:

[-Jrabbit]

Thx, DaveV!!!

[Verrucosus]

I am all for customizing city names, but WYTM2MonkyTown? I fail to see what that is supposed to mean.

I am amazed by the speed of this game now. I don't think I have ever been able to build Michelangelo's Chapel on Deity in a BC year. We have had a bit of luck with a continent for ourselves and no serious barbarian threat so far, but still ... great game!

Thank you for posting the map, DaveV.

[Sharkbait]

Originally posted by Verrucosus
I am all for customizing city names, but WYTM2MonkyTown? I fail to see what that is supposed to mean.

Heheh.....anyone?

[Sharkbait]

My thanks also to DaveV for the pics.

Here’s the log:

-650(0) – 4 cities have production changed to settlers. RB settler in Strabo, 2 workers put on sea. RB shields in other cities. TSL to 70/30/0. 31g, 19turns for tech. 7g left.

Vikings call, I say No to war on Japan. They leave.

-625(1) – Monksville makes hides van. 3 vans to Valencia – HG will be done next turn. The barbs near Barcelona move a bit closer but separately. I move dip and chariot closer to them.

I visit the Japanese and gift, Philo, Seaf, Myst, Curr (Neutral) and then swap Writing for Polytheism.
I then visit India and give them Philo, and they are neutral, so I get Math in exchange for Philo (again – nice one guys). I leave.

1 red face in Valladolid so I make an Elvis for 1 turn until HG.

U.S. learns Cer Bur, abandons GL and starts it again. Viking gov’t overthrown.

-600(2) – Salamanca makes settler. HG built in Valencia, with WLTK celebrations breaking out there. Collossus completed using 4 vans.

Barb stack gets no closer but lone archer does. I decide to save the bribe cash (61g out of 65 in the bank) and attack it with the chariot, which wins but goes into the red. The stack is far enough away for this not to be an issue though.

Van delivery! Valldolid silk to Delhi (D) +204g. Hides demand remains. TSL to 30/70/0 to ensure tech will be done next turn.

RB settler in Strabo, IRB down to 17g.

Indians are studying Astro – good! Vikes go to Monarchy, and get Philo from Indians. Barbs move further away.

-575(3) – Collossus built in Valencia!

Republic->Monotheism. No revolution as we’ve got too may units to support and are not ready. Up to the next player when to switch.

Silk worked in SSC not Strabo now. TSL back to 70/30/0 +37g per turn.

Decision: do I give the Indians Republic now and wait to deliver the next van, or do I deliver the van now? I decide to give them the tech.

I move a warrior out to support the healing chariot – will attack with the warrior first if necessary to soften the barbs up..

U.S. gets Philo from Japan, Japan gets CoL, and peace. Barbs move further away.

-550(4) – Valldolid and Barcelona make settlers. I start heading a few towards the SSC to road and mine with silks.

The Indians didn’t revolt, so I deliver the silver van to Delhi (D) anyway for +160g. Dye and hides demanded in Delhi, with silver blocked.

I disband 1 Strabo warrior to get rid of some shield support. Madrid changed to van production and RB 1 row. All cities now producing vans. I RB a van in the SSC. 58g left.

Barb archers land near Strabo!! And just after I disbanded a warrior! One unit is next to the city, the other at (76,24) so not an immediate threat.

-525(5) – Warrior kills barb archer, gets vet status. Dip moved into the area. 94g, spend down to 40g.

-500(6) – Archer bribed for 61g, supported by Barcelona.

WYTM2MonkyTown founded at (71,13) – I preferred the square all along, and especially after the roading the had previously been done.

Bilbao founded at (86,24).

Indian govt overthrown! Celts get Lit from India, who get IronW and peace. Vikes get IronW and Repub from Indians, Vikes and Japanese swap WarC and IronW, peace.

-475(7) – disorder in Salamance! I moved a warrior to MonkyTown and Sala grew. So Elvis enters the building, warrior being moved over from Saragossa.

Monksville hides to Delhi (D) +176g, demand remains and silver unblocked. Tech done.

Vikes start GL.

-450(8) – Mono -> Medicine. Disorder in Seville – Elvis. Salamanca back in order, Elvis fired.

-425(9) – Visit Japan, gift Maths and Repub, get map. Spend down to 7g.

Indians learn Astro!!

-400(10) – About to drop a van off near Madras but a Viking warrior is right there. So I visit the Vikes (hostile), gift the Trade, peace, gift Pott and they are neutral. Van unloaded.

So that’s it. I was hoping to get Mike’s done this turnset but didn’t quite manage.

A fair few of the settlers are improving the SSC, although I was thinking of heading one east of Madrid and founding a city there. In addition, one the settler near Monksville finished its road, I would suggest putting it on a boat and setting up a city at (53,21) – silk and whale and a canal city to ease access to the Celts. Not to mention deliveries back to the SSC.

5 food vans outside the SSC are ready to go, so once the next van gets delivered to Madras we can finish the vans / get Mikes.

I was thinking of disbanding a bunch of our warriors, but leave that decision to the next player.

[Sharkbait]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
The problem with early growth of SSC is a risk hides supply may be lost (hides is always more likely in small cities).

IIRC the SSC isn't one of the cities producing hides.

[-Jrabbit]

Nice work, Sharkbait. Camel production will be critical in the next turnset. After Mike's, we need to make a beeline for the Observatory to maximize the SSC, and start putting together the shipchain in earnest. The king will likely want to authorize a rehoming program in preparation for The Republic.

IMHO.

[Bloody Monk]

Nice turnset, Sharkbait. Good work romancing the Japanese for Poly, getting HG, and adding cities. I wonder if building Col was timely, considering how small the SSC is now. If no AI was building it, those camels could have gone for trading or an earlier build of Mono. What you did wasn't wrong, not saying that; just thinking about what if...minimal impact -v- city wide happiness control.

I think it is not timely to mine the wheats in SSC just now. The usual practice is to irrigate them and change the silks to wheat so the SSC can grow to max size. Then, later, change them all to Silk, build a Gran and pop in a food van as needed. My biggest surprise is that the SSC doesn't have any trade routes yet. Getting 3 routes max rikki-tik in the SSC is the way to go.

I think your "Celt Canal" idea is very promising. With Construction, we could build a fort on the hills bottleneck to keep the Celts at bay. The swamps will keep the Indians from rushing us by land. A city on the main land mass will give us a little cred with the locals. It will need a garrison for both the city and the fort. That seems a good plan indeed!!

General Discussion:

We need Astro from the Indians, by tech trade, first thing, even before hitting Enter. If we delay, there is a good chance they will start Cope's and won't do any trade with us until that is finished. Making that trade before finishing Medicine will set up University next (w/o having to research Astro).

It looks like this group of AI is trade happy among themselves and Americans are working on GL. So far 2 are Hostile and that number may well grow. That could set up a time in the future where we do not have enough techs to make an AI happy enough to trade techs with us. So only give something up if you have to.

I think we need more cities. After we get Mike's Chapel we will not have to worry about sympathetic revolts in old cites. We also need more boats.

Who will be next?? Straybow or Elephant have not played yet. If nobody else turns up, then previous players should take a second turn. I had hoped more oldtimers would have raised their hands by now. The game is going quite well and whoever picks it up next should find themselves having a grand time.

Monk