The Bloody Monk HOF Celebration Succession Game!!!

[SlowThinker]

I didn't play vanilla civ for longtime, but IIRC I always considered MPE to be a must. You get maps (extremely important for trade, also for defense - you can guard/block only some directions, also for attack if you wish), you can trade techs (AI will discover techs for you), you can ask gold from AI etc.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by DaveV
I can play tomorrow morning (20 hours or so from now); if someone else can play between now and then, have at it! If not, I'll call the save later today.

Like RJM, I'm a lot more used to Civ4 than Civ2. And when I used to play Civ2, my goal was nearly always conquest rather than space. So what's our medium-term goal? Marco Polo, or just a swarm of boats and settlers?

Edit: oops, I meant camels, not settlers. Must ... resist ... ICS!

Assuming you do in fact play next...good luck and don't resist too much. A modified ICS, allowing for cities size 5-8, with an SSC with 4 trade specials at (83,19) will get us going nicely. More cities quickly is a very good plan. Please give some consideration to my "rescue plan" for M'ville. Marching the charged Sett on the Grapes to that city square and irrigating the trees to plains will allow that city to begin to thrive. With an extra arrow and food, science is furthered and it can support a tree chopping Sett.

More on that 'Grape Irrigating Sett'...
I would never. A mine will give Seville some shield/arrow punch. My 2cents.

"medium-term goals:"
--8-10 cities
--Trade, Philo, Mono
--MPE, maps, trade techs, then
--HG, for its happiness affects, growth [in SSC], then
--Col, [in SSC], then
--Mikes Chapel, depending on conditions, substitutes/augments Temple in Rep
--TRADE, routes, gold, beakers

Something to think about...do what you will. And have fun.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Wow, we certainly are a chatty group today. Lots of different points being discussed...

1) I realized that most folk have not played Civ2 in a loooong time. So I tried to outline some general considerations and ideas to twig everyone's memory. I hope someone has found it useful. Just one thing; we are playing Civ2, not Zork, not Strategic Conquest, not Risk, and not Civ4. Could folk review the game before playing. Please.

2)Temples will be built, eventually, in most cities. But they are a wasteful expense before they are needed. They cost 1 gold per turn. We only make 4 gold right now. We can't afford to feel more civilized just yet. Warriors are cheap and Republic is far, far off in the future.

3) Unhappiness at 4 or 6 cities doesn't mean don't build new cities. It only requires a tag-along warrior and having a second warrior in size 2 cities that might have a sympathetic revolt. The High Council says 'Build more Cities."

4) Hut Finder is unnecessary to read the map. Look at the line of Specials from above Madrid to above and to the East of SF, and the 2 specials in the SF radius. It must be a 2-4-2 pattern with the other '2' in the dark part of the map. (83,19) will be a decent SSC site.

5) Canals are not "valuable" or necessary. Really?? Trade requires boats which need coastal cities which need access from inland lakes to the open sea --> which means Canals.

6) Marco Polo has many benefits quite well sketched by Slow. The reason to build it first, assuming no AI is building HG, is to have first contact when our cities are small. Every little bit helps in getting the MGE AI to trade with us. Many of the techs we will need we can trade for and save our research for other things. Pottery, Map, Horse, Writing are probably (usually anyway) available from the AI.

You do not have to contact the AI every turn with MPE in Civ2. That would be boring, I agree, but it doesn't happen...in Civ2.

7) Save Monksville, Save the World. Change the city square to Plains by irrigating the trees.

8) Building on trees had a huge cost. I played the map from 3050 to 2100 and ended with 7 cities cranking science at 4 turns, discovering Currency at the end of 2100. And a canal to the sea.

It could be that I take things too seriously. I just want us to do our best.

Monk

[-Jrabbit]

Well said, Monk. I'm in agreement with the above post, although still not sold oon Marco Polo.

More on that 'Grape Irrigating Sett'...
I would never. A mine will give Seville some shield/arrow punch. My 2cents.

Make it 4 cents... I was totally mystified by that.

[SlowThinker]

Monk, a Civ2 game must be taken seriously!

My view:
I agree with Monk in all points, except hutfinder maybe - I would say if you enjoy to plan with hutfinder then go for it.
Yes, canals are very important for trade. Timing: with MPE completion canals and a road system should be completed.
Warriors are indeed better than Temples, also because AI pays hush money if you have more units (their strength is not important).
IMHO there is too much of irri-settlers on the screenshot. Better to build cities or roads.

[DaveV]

I have the save, and will play tomorrow morning (should be posting the results within 12 hours).

Edit: well, I thought I could dash off the 20 turns in an hour, but it's taking longer than that. I'll finish by tomorrow this time. Apologies to all for the delay.

[DaveV]

Finished. Here's the map:



Here's the log:

2100: Wake up the irrigating settlers. Irrigation will be needed eventually; more cities are needed now. Change Monksville production from temple to warrior. Note to self: Madrid settler is charged.

2050: Let our chariot rest, to get its 2nd move back.

2000; tip hut at (59,12): Currency. Ka-ching!

1950: Research Trade next. Valencia founded at (83,19). Only the fifth city in the list, but the settler is right there. The site is crowded by Strabos folly, but one plays the cards one is dealt.

1850: Salamanca founded at (67,11).

1800: Trade->Writing. Our chariot is our only defense against barbs, so I pull him back from the frontier. Monksville irrigated.

1750: Barcelona founded at (79,29). The first citizen in Valencia is now a red face. Move a warrior there from Strabo's folly.

1650: Civil disorder in Valencia. Rush a warrior in Strabo's folly, move its warrior to Valencia.

1600: More exploring.

1450: Writing->Pottery. Valladolid founded at (70,24): Valladolid's first face is red.

1400: Barb chariot appears at (87,13). Saragossa founded at (63,7): no extra red faces.

1350: A second barb chariot plus leader appears at (86,14). Rush a diplomat in Madrid.

1150: Pottery->Mysticism. Americans start the Great Library.

And here's the save:

[Bloody Monk]

Very good, DaveV; nicely done. Nine cities, the beginnings of our road net, a start on camels; you had a grand party!!

Who wants to be next??

Soon it will be time to shorten the turnsets to 10. I suggest the next player decide; if after 10 you are ready to stop, pull the plug...or, if it didn't take too much of your time, do the full 20.

I have a suggestion for the next player. At least twice we have had barbs come out of the darkness to the North. Its time we explore that area fully and find a place or places to build. This may slow up the barbs (if it is a "spawn" point and not pirates landing). Once this 'spawn' is dealt with, keep a few warriors on walk-about until it gets opened up.

If we are going to work those Wheats, let's get some roads on them. Arrows are good, and roads are faster on plains than on trees (when they become Silk).

@ DaveV
Looking at the city sites, I was wondering about Salamanca. I think I would have have built it on the grass just beyond the Grapes (71,13) after roading the orphan Irrigated tile. And then on the Salamanca site. Just for shorter lines of communication. Is that too close to ICS?? I really don't think it would be a problem. What are your thoughts.

On the poaching/crowding that the SSC will do to StrabosFolly, SF was always going to be a canal city. SF won't get big but that should not be a problem.

Monk

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
I have a suggestion for the next player. At least twice we have had barbs come out of the darkness to the North. Its time we explore that area fully and find a place or places to build. This may slow up the barbs (if it is a "spawn" point and not pirates landing). Once this 'spawn' is dealt with, keep a few warriors on walk-about until it gets opened up.

Yes, I have a bunch of warriors heading in that direction. I hated to lose our only attacking unit by exploring with it, and needed my warriors for martial law. I recall that chariots come from a spawn instead of a pirate ship.

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
If we are going to work those Wheats, let's get some roads on them. Arrows are good, and roads are faster on plains than on trees (when they become Silk).

Valencia needs another warrior, a temple, or the Gardens to grow beyond size 2. I'd vote for mining the 4th special, which would let it generate a good chunk of shields and arrows while remaining stable in size.

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Looking at the city sites, I was wondering about Salamanca. I think I would have have built it on the grass just beyond the Grapes (71,13) after roading the orphan Irrigated tile. And then on the Salamanca site. Just for shorter lines of communication. Is that too close to ICS?? I really don't think it would be a problem. What are your thoughts.

I really like to build on rivers when I can, for the extra trade arrow and the free bridge. Being too spread out may well be a problem; we can still squeeze in a few more cities if we need to.

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
On the poaching/crowding that the SSC will do to StrabosFolly, SF was always going to be a canal city. SF won't get big but that should not be a problem.

Agreed.

More thoughts from me: I was wishing I'd picked mapmaking instead of mysticism as the last tech to research: we'll need it for map trades if we build MPE. On MPE: it's great for techs and maps, but I don't expect to get any tribute from it. That only works when other AIs share our landmass (although MPE can more than pay for itself in that circumstance). We also have Pottery for HG, and happiness is becoming an issue. Lots of interesting choices for the next player to face.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by DaveV
Yes, I have a bunch of warriors heading in that direction. I hated to lose our only attacking unit by exploring with it, and needed my warriors for martial law. I recall that chariots come from a spawn instead of a pirate ship.

I understand and agree; it was more important to secure Madrid. I wasn't referring to your turns but the coming turnset. Good catch on the spawnpoint!!

Valencia needs another warrior, a temple, or the Gardens to grow beyond size 2. I'd vote for mining the 4th special, which would let it generate a good chunk of shields and arrows while remaining stable in size.

I'd say all three. But warrior 1st, until Myst, the Tem is both too expensive and too little bang. I agree on mining the 4th Special (86,20); just build the road on that tile first (more efficient timewise to road grass)

I really like to build on rivers when I can, for the extra trade arrow and the free bridge. Being too spread out may well be a problem; we can still squeeze in a few more cities if we need to.

Yep, and yep. I would have built on both the river sites too, eventually.

More thoughts from me: I was wishing I'd picked mapmaking instead of mysticism as the last tech to research: we'll need it for map trades if we build MPE. On MPE: it's great for techs and maps, but I don't expect to get any tribute from it. That only works when other AIs share our landmass (although MPE can more than pay for itself in that circumstance). We also have Pottery for HG, and happiness is becoming an issue. Lots of interesting choices for the next player to face.

Don't worry about mapmaking. At least one of the AI will have researched it by now. Myst will make Temples more valuable. MPE is not for Tribute in an Island Game, but Maps and Techs, as you indicated. It can be built anywhere, HG needs to be built in Valencia. Hopefully Val will be size 3 or greater. If not sending a Sett to 'build in' will have a good payoff.

Someone want to be next?? This is getting interesting!!

Monk

[Sharkbait]

Congratulations Monk!

Am I too late to join the game?

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Sharkbait
Congratulations Monk!

Am I too late to join the game?

Of course not - in fact you can be next if you want to.

RJM

[-Jrabbit]

I would love to be next but the .sav is coming up blank on download.
Will dredge up another machine this weekend and pray.

Played a iittle "getting to know you" Civ2 this evening. Amazing how much one forgets...

In the meantime, someone else should jump in. Monk? (After all, you're the honoree...)

[SlowThinker]

I downloaded and I can play, except somebody wants to take the game first.

[Verrucosus]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Played a iittle "getting to know you" Civ2 this evening. Amazing how much one forgets...

It is, particularly with regard to the less obvious differences between the various editions of Civilization. Earlier, when rjm wrote that opening huts wouldn't delay the current research project (monarchy), I first thought he was wrong because I remembered the different rule from Civ1. Same thing with the "modern" rule of auto-clearing a forest by founding a city.

Bloody Monk's early intuition that we are alone seems to be proven correct. When we get Mapmaking later, it will be interesting to see whether the coasts visible in the southwest belong to an opponent's continent or just to a few minor islands.

Further expansion:
For the moment, I think that two more cities on the east coast (perhaps 86,26 and 85,33) will do. So far, we haven't discovered any attractive real estate in the north, but that may change as we push back the barbarians.

Defense:
With 21 warriors plus 1 chariot and phalanx each, I feel a lot more secure. In fact, we are pretty close to the free support limit and we need additional settlers to finish the road network. The double garrisons now in place also help with expansion, although for the time being only Valencia and Vallaloid show additional unhappiness in their "happy" statistics.

Wonder projects:
With four caravans in production, we should think again about wonder locations. Seville still looks good to me for Marco Polo's Embassy.

Valencia:
The monks of Monksville may have had the idea first, but I think Valencia really needs one soon. It is already close to rioting, it has an excellent food supply and we should allow it to grow towards size 5. If we plan to turn Valencia into our science city, it will eventually get the Hanging Gardens. With those, it will get the celebration bonus at size 5, if it has a temple (with Mysticism) and three garrisons.

Best of luck to the next player!