Lost Legions, scenario under development

[Elensar]

Wait, or do not. Waffle, you must not. Decisive, you must be.

My main problem with playtesting this (which is an excuse for being slow about it) is that while the idea is kind of cool, one has a few too many units.

Its not undoable. But "Got to move allllll these units." feels more like a horde than a handful of survivors.

Maybe that's me.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Elensar
Wait, or do not. Waffle, you must not. Decisive, you must be.

My main problem with playtesting this (which is an excuse for being slow about it) is that while the idea is kind of cool, one has a few too many units.

Its not undoable. But "Got to move allllll these units." feels more like a horde than a handful of survivors.

Maybe that's me.

Well, if the barbarians do their job, you should have less units in a short while...

[Catfish]

Originally posted by Cyrion
As far as I'm aware of it, I haven't deleted/moved/renamed anything (and especially any sprite files) in my own Original directories...

You should have 79 unitXX.spr files (animated units), 1 static.spr file (static units) and 1 resource.spr file (animated terrain) in your Original directory. I've attached a fix (even if it's not final, you can see how it's done). It'll hide the health bars for the 3 tree types and the rapids, and remove interference from the game's static unit sprites and animated resource sprites. Players need to uncheck the Animated Units box under Graphic Options (Ctrl+P) - their effect is negligible anyway. Just extract the files into your scenario directory, overwriting any existing files.

[Cyrion]

Thanks a lot, I'll try that this week-end!

And I'll check what I have in my original directory, too!

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Catfish
BTW, if designers didn't set about deleting/moving/renaming sprite files in their own Original directories, they'd notice these problems immediately.

Well, I just checked, and you were right!

As I can't imagine having done that on my own, I probably followed the advice from one of the designers you wrote about...

And thanks for the link, next time I (hopefully...) should be able to do it without bothering you!

[McMonkey]

When I load the game up the units look normal but as soon as the initial text is cleared the units revert back to the vanilla ToT ones! How can I stop this?

Also, I was not around when you started this project so I don't know the background story. Any chance of a little background as to why they are there. I get the point that you have to get home in one piece through Indian Country, or is it Chinese country?

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Werd100
When I load the game up the units look normal but as soon as the initial text is cleared the units revert back to the vanilla ToT ones! How can I stop this?

Go to post #63 from this thread, get the file provided by Catfish and put the 3 files inside into your scenario folder, and then it's done!

Sorry about that, it's my first experience with ToT...

Also, I was not around when you started this project so I don't know the background story. Any chance of a little background as to why they are there. I get the point that you have to get home in one piece through Indian Country, or is it Chinese country?

There is a link in post #50 to a text file answering all (or at least some ) your questions

[Elensar]

Okay, I'm sorry to say I've been neglectful and lazy about playtesting. But one thing I'd like to add.


"Scouts report: (blah blah blah)" early on so you know -not- to head straight west (and run into impentretable forrest and unattackable border units.) might be nice. Its not a big thing, but if event space permits, a little assistance would be nice. Nothing fancy. Just a nudge. Wonderfully well done graphics.

Actually useful information after I get my butt in gear and test.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Elensar
"Scouts report: (blah blah blah)" early on so you know -not- to head straight west (and run into impentretable forrest and unattackable border units.) might be nice. Its not a big thing, but if event space permits, a little assistance would be nice. Nothing fancy. Just a nudge.

Excellent comment, I'll do that!

BTW: are there really too many units to move, or is it bearable?

Wonderfully well done graphics.

I have no merit there: Fairline is guilty!

Actually useful information after I get my butt in gear and test.

No worries, we all (sadly ) have lives besides Civ!

[McMonkey]

Right, sorted the graphics. I am just adding my impressions and ideas as I play through:

- The map is a bit featureless. How about some villages to pillage. They could act either like goody huts or trigger some kind of barbarian attack.

- One idea could be to have allied villages (hex edited so they stay allies) that could help repair damaged units. A lot of my wounded stragglers have been picked off.

- I really like the raft idea. I only found the "? Unit" after I had found the trees and I had already twigged what to do. I suppose it depends on the route you take. I guess I moved slightly north west before heading to the river.

- After getting the rafts I was not sure if I was supposed to just use them to cross the river or to sail up the river in. I am going to try sailing in them and see what happens. The forest looks too thick to go through!
Ah! The river ends, back to plan A

- The wagon graphics are really naff, I guess you intend to replace them with something better, right?

- The Skythian AI is vicious. A few of my stragglers were cut off and hacked to little pieces on the east bank of the river. That's good but not for me
Next time I will need to be much more cautious with my forces and keep them closer together.

- By turn 42 my entire column had been wiped out. Cornered on the west bank of the second river by the Dacians. I used the cheat mode to reveal the map (being careful not to look further ahead on the route!) and realised I must have gone way off track. I guess I would have been best to stay on the rafts and float south then west. I think a bit of a hint when you first get the rafts would be helpful.

I like this a lot, needs a bit of polish as I am sure you know but I think it works well. I would like to see some villages though as the map is a bit empty! Nice job so far. I will have another test soon, got to cook dinner now though

[Elensar]

For me, its bearable. I would prefer to have less just to emphasis how bad it is to lose units, however, in addition to it just seeming like "The Horde on the Move" (actual play can be done fine, mind).

Alas, its not even that. Its that other Civ things are occupying me instead as well... : ( But hey, this is promising.

I don't know personally about villages to pillage or heal from, but maybe a little less barreness. Though how to do that is a mystery, as this isn't an area (initially) you should see a whole lot.

Definately things like "Scout reports" and other events just to keep attention on what's happening. The "one more turn" syndrome is missing for me, even though the idea is pretty neat, the execution is missing something.

[Cyrion]

@Werd and Elensar

First of all, thanks a lot guys: you're providing exactly the kind of input I am needing and it will definitely help me a lot!

And now I'll adress the first points you mentioned:

As I wrote some weeks ago, the "cosmetics" aren't finished yet! Namely, what is still need to do is:
- the sounds: I might start on that tonight, if I'm able to stop playing Aeterna Civitas for a while
- modify some graphics and units name: when Fairline is back and with his help
- write the final readme
- prepare a title screen (I need to do some scanning + assembling!)
- and of course follow your advice regarding the necessary modifications!

Originally posted by Werd100
- The map is a bit featureless. How about some villages to pillage.

Originally posted by Elensar
I don't know personally about villages to pillage or heal from, but maybe a little less barreness. Though how to do that is a mystery, as this isn't an area (initially) you should see a whole lot.

You both seem to agree on that! And you know what? I think I do too!

So yes, something to "spice up" the going a little bit is necessary, to make it a little bit more interesting!

That is especially true for the first part, before the river is reached!

How about some villages to pillage.
They could act either like goody huts or trigger some kind of barbarian attack.

Seems like something I could use!

Here is my idea: I could modify SOME of the barbarians creating events so that they appear on villages (other units) that I could place on the map!

They would keep appearing until the village is razed! So that would make razing some of the villages not only useful but necessary to protect the convoy!

But some of the barbarians will keep on appearing where they do right now, to make sure you hurry!

- One idea could be to have allied villages (hex edited so they stay allies) that could help repair damaged units. A lot of my wounded stragglers have been picked off.

Excellent idea! But then I wouldn't call it a village but rather a food dump or something (please provide ideas!), give this civ a city graphic not looking like a city at all and change the text message to something like: "your scouts have found a herd of buffaloes and soon brought back plenty of meat for everybody! Well nurished and rested, your "name of unit" are ready to go on!".

- I really like the raft idea. I only found the "? Unit" after I had found the trees and I had already twigged what to do. I suppose it depends on the route you take. I guess I moved slightly north west before heading to the river.

- After getting the rafts I was not sure if I was supposed to just use them to cross the river or to sail up the river in. I am going to try sailing in them and see what happens. The forest looks too thick to go through!
Ah! The river ends, back to plan A

- By turn 42 my entire column had been wiped out. Cornered on the west bank of the second river by the Dacians. I used the cheat mode to reveal the map (being careful not to look further ahead on the route!) and realised I must have gone way off track. I guess I would have been best to stay on the rafts and float south then west. I think a bit of a hint when you first get the rafts would be helpful.

Originally, I used the "?" units to provide informations on what to do instead of using "time triggered" messages!

As the scenario is extremely linear and you nearly have to follow it to succeed, I think I'll revert to "time triggered" messages, and put more of them to explain things a bit better!

- The wagon graphics are really naff, I guess you intend to replace them with something better, right?

Of course! as well as some others which, while not as bad as the wagons, are not "to par" with most of Fairline's units!

- The Skythian AI is vicious. A few of my stragglers were cut off and hacked to little pieces on the east bank of the river. That's good but not for me
Next time I will need to be much more cautious with my forces and keep them closer together.

Good!

I like this a lot, needs a bit of polish as I am sure you know but I think it works well. I would like to see some villages though as the map is a bit empty! Nice job so far. I will have another test soon, got to cook dinner now though

Thanks for your kind words!

I knew it needed things to make it more interesting, but didn't know what! So please keep on providing ideas!

Definately things like "Scout reports" and other events just to keep attention on what's happening. The "one more turn" syndrome is missing for me, even though the idea is pretty neat, the execution is missing something.

Yes, you're right, the "one more turn" syndrome is missing, and that is what we designers aim for!

But I think it's not over yet and with your suggestions I can make it worth playing!

So more messages will definitely get in, to provide directions + to give more atmosphere!

If you have any ideas on what kind of messages would be good, please tell me!

[Elensar]

Originally posted by Cyrion
@Werd and Elensar

First of all, thanks a lot guys: you're providing exactly the kind of input I am needing and it will definitely help me a lot!
...

Seems like something I could use!

Here is my idea: I could modifiy SOME of the barbarians creating events so that they appear on villages (other units) that I could place on the map!

They would keep appearing until the village is razed! So that would make razing some of the villages not only useful but necessary to protect the convoy!

But some of the barbarians will keep on appearing where they do right now, to make sure you hurry!

Great! That should grab one's attention. Call attention to it in the readme or something.

Excellent idea! But then I wouldn't call it a village but rather a food dump or something (please provide ideas!), give this civ a city graphic not looking like a city at all and change the text message to something like: "your scouts have found a herd of buffaloes and soon brought back plenty of meat for everybody! Well nurished and rested, your "name of unit" are ready to go on!".

Hm. Were this across a desert, I'd say an oasis. "Your scouts have found a waterhole, a welcome site in this parched land, so unlike home. The spirits of your "name of unit" sore at this sign that the Gods have not abandoned them." Either works.

As the scenario is extremely linear and you nearly have to follow it to succeed, I think I'll revert to "time triggered" messages, and put more of them to explain things a bit better!

If possible, though damned if I know how (don't worry about it, but it would be nice) have it be a little less linear. Make it possible to take a short but dangerous or longer but safer route, say. Though this would only work if you had some consequences for the longer route.

If its too much trouble to do right, don't worry. But that would be a neat feature.

Good!

Like game masters in roleplaying games, telling a scenario designer that his scenario was made by a sadist is a compliment. The balance of units seems fine to me, at least for that feel.

If you have any ideas on what kind of messages would be good, please tell me!

Think of this as a novel. Or a chroncile of the Great Journey. Comments on morale. Or supplies. Or any of the other things that would attract attention.

I can't think of any specific message, but that sort of stuff.

This'll be good, I think. Its not complete, that's why we have playtesters. And thanks for listening to us whine that your scenario sucks (but not really)!

: )

[McMonkey]

I think this scenario does have a lot of the "one more turn" factor already. It is difficult and I liked the way I was punished for being reckless with my units. I tried desperately to get my stragglers to the rafts but was cornered most skillfully by the AI Skythians.

I agree that more text events would spice the game up and keep the player focused and feeling under pressure. Timed ones would really mean that the player feels like time is ticking away.

I think the Idea of a few scattered nomadic steppe villages would help add a bit of a feeling of progress through the game, like milestones. Allied villages to help heal (which cannot be captured by the Romans and produce no units) and some villages to pillage that would give either a bonus unit (barbarian scout?) or as you say cut off some of the attackers. Just an idea mind!

You could use minor rivers as bottlenecks by making them one ocean square wide with a limited number of crossing points. This could lead to an enemy ambush were you would have to fight a little battle rather than just pick off harrasing troops.

As I have not played all the way through yet I may have suggested some things that are already in the game.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Elensar
Great! That should grab one's attention. Call attention to it in the readme or something.

Or even better than the readme: in the messages that'll appear in game (thanks ToT for the big size of the events file! )!

Hm. Were this across a desert, I'd say an oasis. "Your scouts have found a waterhole, a welcome site in this parched land, so unlike home. The spirits of your "name of unit" sore at this sign that the Gods have not abandoned them." Either works.

Well, I might mention in the messages that it's Summer, and that the units are getting really thirsty, and then I could alternate between 2/3 kind of villages with different messages: water, food, etc...

If possible, though damned if I know how (don't worry about it, but it would be nice) have it be a little less linear. Make it possible to take a short but dangerous or longer but safer route, say. Though this would only work if you had some consequences for the longer route.

If its too much trouble to do right, don't worry. But that would be a neat feature.

I would like it too, but it's really tricky!

Actually, there is a part where you can go the long way round, but then it won't work if I want to keep the time pressure on!

So I guess it will have to stay linear (unless I intend to spend MANY hours adapting it...)

Like game masters in roleplaying games, telling a scenario designer that his scenario was made by a sadist is a compliment. The balance of units seems fine to me, at least for that feel.

Good that the balance seems alright!

And I have to admit I have a sadistic roleplaying game master past...

Think of this as a novel. Or a chroncile of the Great Journey. Comments on morale. Or supplies. Or any of the other things that would attract attention.

I can't think of any specific message, but that sort of stuff.

Excellent suggestion! That'll be done!

This'll be good, I think. Its not complete, that's why we have playtesters. And thanks for listening to us whine that your scenario sucks (but not really)!

: )

Thanks for your help!