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  • #46
    How to fight

    Can't get no sleep!

    Okay, now I want to put my ideas of the battle system into the discussion, which you might find a bit strange.

    To describe this I show you at first two examples for each unit class. The defense values always have 1/3 of the offense values due to the high terrain modifiers (grassland + 100%) and stackable design.

    Infantry

    Mercenary Tercios

    Offense: 60
    Defense: 20
    Hitpoints: 4
    Firepower: 4
    Movement: 4
    Flags: ICW
    Costs: 60

    Mercenary Lines

    Offense: 75
    Defense: 25
    Hitpoints: 4
    Firepower: 4
    Movement: 4
    Flags: ICW
    Costs: 80


    Cavalry

    Carabiniers

    Offense: 45
    Defense: 15
    Hitpoints: 8
    Firepower: 7
    Movement: 7
    Flags: none
    Costs: 160

    Heavy Cuirassiers

    Offense: 45
    Defense: 15
    Hitpoints: 9
    Firepower: 7
    Movement: 6
    Flags: none
    Costs: 200


    Artillery

    Demi-Culverine Battery

    Offense: 0
    Defense: 0
    Hitpoints: 1
    Firepower: 1
    Movement: 2
    Flags: Carry Air
    Costs: 80

    12-Pounder Munition

    Domain: Air
    Flight time: 1
    Offense: 50
    Defense: 0
    Hitpoints: 1
    Firepower: 5
    Movement: 2
    Flags: ICW; DAA
    Costs: 10


    Special

    Field Marshall

    Offense: 0
    Defense: 10
    Hitpoints: 10
    Firepower: 10
    Movement: 10
    Flags: See 2 squares wide; IZC
    costs: 150 (event-raised only)

    Pioneers

    Ingineer slot
    Domain: Air
    Flight time: 0
    Offense: 0
    Defense: 10
    Hitpoints: 4
    Firepower: 1
    Movement: 3
    Flags: none
    costs: 60



    So far...What is the sense of all about this? First, I think, the playtesting will show. Secondly, I hope I found a useful way to set somewhat differences especially between infantry and cavalry. While the ones have the same HP/FP, the others have the same offense/defense values (instead of a few exceptions for both). I don't know if the infantry really can profit more from high defense modifiers and if the cavalry has better succes on the open field against light wounded units as their opposites but I tested out that their power does not differ much in a standard situation (stackable grassland).

    A Heavy Cuirass has a very little better chance to beat a Merc. Line than another Line in offense but a loss of him will cost more than double. So the player must use his cavalry to "cut" through weaker/wounded enemy lines cause it can beat up theoretically six or seven units in one turn. On "entrenched" terrain or in cities, however, one, two or more cannon shots before the assault might bring fewer shield losses than storming with foot troopers only, no matter how well trained they are.

    Another thing that is proofed and easy to understand is that infantry usually defends before a cavalry unit, even if the horsemen would defend better. As result the cavalry is not in danger to end up as "cannon fodder" but has a higher "life expectancy" and so more chances becoming a veteran.

    The engine was never designed for the bombardement concept I prefer for "real" artillery as it was made for SMAC. But with some phantasy and tolerance an old civ gamer could like this, especially house rule- and mass-unit-scen experienced PBEM-Players for who I design my scen primary. Of course I know the Air carrier flag only works for see units. But isn't it quite realistic that the immobile artillery of the 17th century (and even later, too) cannot move and then shoot in one turn? To prevent the massproducing and mass-using of muniton, there could be a house rule, which says that one cannon may fire just once or twice during one turn.

    At last, as I mentioned yet, the Marshalls and Pioneers play a major role. First is evident. There are two strong defended hills and a valley between - you can't break thourgh it and leave th hills behind you without a general. The marshall cannot be build and are very rare. Every civ will not get more than three or four at the same time but 1. the high movement rate of field marshalls (and the even faster "Great Leaders" like Wallenstein or Bernhard) are able to command a couple of stacks.

    The pioneers have to important abilities that make them different from workers. They can transform plain and grassland to entrenchments, which has a bonus of 150% to depends (=Hills) but lowers the ressources extremely. And they can move onto rivers and transform an ocean square to a bridge. Both transformations can be formed back.

    Good night!
    Last edited by battosai; February 13, 2007, 19:11.

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    • #47
      Great rundown of battle designs...Seems a pretty robust system.

      I will read through this first thing in the morning, after some shuteye!

      http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Home
      http://totalfear.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #48
        Today just a gift for VanBert.

        An important Habsburgian supply route is included here: te "Veltlin Valley" along the road between Chur and Bergamo. The Switzermen will porbably cause some trouble in the area.
        Attached Files

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        • #49
          Hey, I can even see my home on your map: where the road crosses the Rhone at the foot of the Great Saint Bernard pass!

          More seriously: Really nice map, battosai!

          And yes, you can depend on the swiss to give a hard time to the Habsburg: harassing them was kind of a national hobby at the time!

          Nitpicking: after taking a closer look at the Rhone area, I have a question: the 2 westernmost mountain passes between Switzerland and the south are supposed to be Simplon (east) and Gt St Bernard, right? If yes, then:
          - Gt St Bernard should be leading straight to Italy (I should know, I live 30 minutes from it ), without going through France first
          - The Rhone itself should be a bit shorter towards its source, or maybe Simplon heading more southeast from the Rhone instead of southwest

          Note: if you want a map of this area, I can look for one; and if you don't care, no problem at all!
          Last edited by Cyrion; February 14, 2007, 18:21.
          Ankh-Morpork, we have an orangutan...
          Discworld Scenario: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...8&pagenumber=1
          POMARJ Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...8&pagenumber=1
          LOST LEGIONS Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...hreadid=169464

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          • #50
            Sorry, I don't get it by know. Could you please mark the road parts that need to be corrected ? I was taking advantage of a trade road map for the mid-16th century for setting these passes.

            Would it suprise you if i've a historical map fetish? I have three different histoical atlas' around me. Today i bough a huge book of wars and battles of 5000 years which cost me € 50, although the TYW is represented on 8 pages. I invested some money in this scen yet indeed.
            Last edited by battosai; February 15, 2007, 14:52.

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            • #51
              @battosai:

              Any chance of posting up your cities, so I can take a peek at them?

              They seem to have much enhancement potential...!

              PS
              That layout is looking excellent.

              http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Home
              http://totalfear.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #52
                Do you serously meanmy cities.gif? It's copied from Colonies IV.
                Last edited by curtsibling; February 16, 2007, 10:25.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by battosai
                  Sorry, I don't get it by know. Could you please mark the road parts that need to be corrected ? I was taking advantage of a trade road map for the mid-16th century for setting these passes.
                  OK; I just made a quick and (very) dirty pic, hoping it would explain things better than words!

                  And this is just my opinion, if you prefer not to follow it, I swear I won't get mad at you!

                  So basically I would:
                  - move Genf (Geneve, please!), Geneva Lake and Bern 1 square to the northeast; this would shorten the Rhone valley and Neuchatel lake (more accurate too!)
                  - replace the whole lake south of Basel with a much smaller one south of the square with the fishes (4 Waldstädtersee??)
                  - add the roads in red
                  - suppress the roads in green
                  Note: you might need to modify the mountains a little bit to make the roads look more plausible

                  Basically, St Bernard leads straight to Torino, Simplon to Milano
                  Attached Files
                  Ankh-Morpork, we have an orangutan...
                  Discworld Scenario: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...8&pagenumber=1
                  POMARJ Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...8&pagenumber=1
                  LOST LEGIONS Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...hreadid=169464

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    But , from a piedmontese.. i must say that the map look great !
                    Oh.. my region just there !
                    My only objection can be that the resource SW of TORINO , the wood, could be changed to WINE .. as u know the LANGHE sub-region , very famous for wine.. i may say some of the best of the world..( barolo, nebbiolo, barbaresco, dolcetto ) but the french people could start to say that they got better.. and this would lead to another 30 yw..

                    But is not important, the region is also famous for FURNITURES.. made of wood.. so somehow is good also this way.

                    another little detail could be that CORSICA has a typical right arm of land going north..if u put there one more land-square on the north-east side .. it would look "perfect" !
                    Anyway... bravo !

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by battosai
                      Do you serously meanmy cities.gif? It's copied from Colonies IV.

                      I'll check those out ASAP...!

                      http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Home
                      http://totalfear.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Does anyone have an idea of how to distinguish infantry types in two categores - tactics (lines, tercios, very ancient) and morale/discipline (national army, disciplined mercenaries, miscaleneous mercenaries, peasents) ?

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                        • #57
                          HP and/or FP, maybe.

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                          • #58
                            Okay, so it would be:

                            Pikemen H/F x/3
                            Tercios x/4
                            Lines x/5

                            (miscelaneous) Mercenaries A/D 60/20 / 60 shields
                            German Mercenaries (for Saxons and Bavarians) 72/24 / 60 - 80 shields
                            Conscripts 84/28 / 100 shields
                            Regulars 90/30 / 120 shields

                            The formations are not touched by the unit costs but they might need some research investment. Aside, most combinations should be possible.

                            Edit: I'm also open to suggestions about an innovative siege war concept (especially in the netherlands). The entrenchment terrain is representing the preperations of the attackers rather than a permanent artillery fort. The last - could they be units, terrains, improvements? A static parachute unit ? A cheap unit defending always at first by a high Def and low HP/FP ?
                            Last edited by battosai; February 17, 2007, 19:44.

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                            • #59
                              My proposal: A fortress (we can have several types from a renaissance castle up to a polygonal artillery fort) is an air unit and has zero movement. Defense, Hitpoints and/or Firepower are extremly high. Given a defense factor of 40, a bastion/ fortress will defend before any non-veteran and non-fortified unit does. Cause it will become veteran quickly the defender can save all of his units behind the fort if he chooses to not fortify them. If he does not, it will mean his units are entrenched in front of the fort.

                              A fort is very hard to destroy by infantry and cavalry. But I found two possibilities to weaken them against artillery shots. They could be the sole units without AA-flag or give the fort a flight time of zero, meaning that their firepower is reduced to 1 and their defense factor halved if attacked by a fighter (as I read in teh Civ2 manual). Or would this just change the defender row from fortress - infantry -cavalry to infantry - fortress - cavalry against artillery.

                              A nice side effect of giving the air domain to frots is that they are repaired very slowly (10% or 20% in a city I think).

                              Edit: Teh sea domain would be even better, since the defense factor is not affected by the "pearl harbour" situation in conrast to a fighter-chopper battle. Anyways there is another concseuence: I wanted to have naval bases in a few ports. Of course the priority of a funny siege warfare is somewhat higher.
                              Last edited by battosai; February 18, 2007, 08:21.

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                              • #60
                                batto bastelt an nem scen

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