Graphics for Freeciv 2.0 and beyond...

[St Leo]

BTW, I would like to remind posters that it is best to let sleeping dogs lie and to not throw stones at each other's hornet nests. Personal attacks aren't cool, mkay?

No need to reply. Really.

We were on the track ahead as the nightmare plastic column of foetid black iridescence oozed tightly onward through its fifteen-foot sinus; gathering unholy speed and driving before it a spiral, re-thickening cloud of the pallid abyss-vapour. It was a terrible, indescribable thing vaster than any subway train—a shapeless congeries of protoplasmic bubbles, faintly self-luminous, and with myriads of temporary eyes forming and unforming as pustules of greenish light all over the tunnel-filling front that bore down upon us, crushing the frantic penguins and slithering over the glistening floor that it and its kind had swept so evilly free of all litter. St Leo was here.

[Broken_Erika]

[SIZE=1]
We were on the track ahead as the nightmare plastic column of foetid black iridescence oozed tightly onward through its fifteen-foot sinus; gathering unholy speed and driving before it a spiral, re-thickening cloud of the pallid abyss-vapour. It was a terrible, indescribable thing vaster than any subway train—a shapeless congeries of protoplasmic bubbles, faintly self-luminous, and with myriads of temporary eyes forming and unforming as pustules of greenish light all over the tunnel-filling front that bore down upon us, crushing the frantic penguins and slithering over the glistening floor that it and its kind had swept so evilly free of all litter. St Leo was here.

Uh, uh, uh, uh,

[:) Smiley]

TVK: Feel free to enlarge those to 96x72.


Here's the first of the Iso's, the size 1 modern city. It's based on your typical U.S. shopping center.

[:) Smiley]

And the second size, inspired by office parks and industrial parks around California.

UPDATED to Version 1.01, with better antialiasing of shadows.

[Yog-Sothoth]

Smiley: Looks good. I'm thinking it might look nice with an additional few small houses in the smallest size?

Here's an in-game shot:

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth


I can include both styles in the tileset and include instructions of how to change between them. Maybe there could be added an option in-game to change between them also, although I don't know how hard that is to addm and if it is desirable. I can talk to jdorje about it.

It's possible to switch tilesets ingame. Although I haven't really tried that. I usually restart the client with the tileset command .

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth
Smiley: Looks good. I'm thinking it might look nice with an additional few small houses in the smallest size?

Here's an in-game shot:

Houses!? Pah! The only thing a modern citizen needs is parking space!

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by CapTVK
It's possible to switch tilesets ingame. Although I haven't really tried that. I usually restart the client with the tileset command .

Yes, you can chose tileset under "local options" (in the Game menu).

btw, cvs head has a vastly improved local options dialog, with content organized in tabs instead of the mess that was before.

Originally posted by CapTVK
Houses!? Pah!

Well, it is supposed to be a city. People need to live somewhere also

[:) Smiley]

Suburban sprawl!

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by St Leo
We were on the track ahead as the nightmare plastic column of foetid black iridescence oozed tightly onward through its fifteen-foot sinus; gathering unholy speed and driving before it a spiral, re-thickening cloud of the pallid abyss-vapour. It was a terrible, indescribable thing vaster than any subway train—a shapeless congeries of protoplasmic bubbles, faintly self-luminous, and with myriads of temporary eyes forming and unforming as pustules of greenish light all over the tunnel-filling front that bore down upon us, crushing the frantic penguins and slithering over the glistening floor that it and its kind had swept so evilly free of all litter. St Leo was here.

Roll sanity.

If you succeed, roll a d6 and substract the result from your current sanity points, otherwise roll a d10 + 2 instead

If any of you loses more than 5 sanity, then roll a d20 on the 'temporary insanities' table, and additionally, if any of you has already lost at least one fifth of his total sanity points in the adventure so far, roll another d20 on the 'permanent insanities' table.




And the cities look amazing! Kudos to Smiley and TVK

[:) Smiley]

Third city size- the city's grown large enough to need housing projects.

[typhoon]

Those cities are great as usual smiley. It's a damn shame though that since they're intended for Freeciv, they're the wrong proportions for either MGE or TOT (i.e. the type used by you, me, and the rest of the board.) With your permission I'd like to resize them to 64x48 so they will be available for scenario makers.

Much as CapTVK is to be lauded for the work he put into Freeciv, I'm afraid that it's actual use will be sadly limited, just as the use of other freeware variants of Civ such as CivEvo were be limited. Reasons are as follows:

- As venerable as Civ2 is, and as the good as the work of artists such as fairline and smiley are, the engine has more or less reached the end of its lifespan. Nowadays folks would rather up to Civ3 and the coming Civ4, for the simple reason that Civ2 can not compete anymore in terms of graphics or game mechanics.

- The only reason why there still remain a number of people (which is unfortunately dwindling) playing Civilization 2 is, aside from low requirements and nostalgic value, the fact that it is EXTREMELY customizable- it doesn't require much in the way of programming skills or 3D modelling knowledge in order to make a good scenario- just experience and a lot of practice, with a healthy dose of innovation and patience. This brings us to our nect point, which is,

- Nobody plays a vanilla Civ2 game anymore, not if they have Civ3 on hand. With the proliferation of the RTS genre in all its 3D rendered form, it is exceedingly difficult to keep the new generation of gamers hooked on turn based games, yet alone one with dated graphics. Civ2 (MGE and TOT), Freeciv and CivEvo fall into this category. Although they hold a place in our hearts, you cannot expect them to keep up with the wants of gamers nowadays- they've run their race, and run it well, but you can't keep flogging a dead horse.

- Why then do people keep playing Civ in its earlier forms, when it has already reached the end of its development potential? The answer is simple. I'll give 3 clues:

1) The title of this forum,

2) The content of this forum,

3) and it begins with an 'S' and ends with a 'cenario.'

- Ladies and gents, the only real reason why the Civ2 community continues to buzz today. The sheer customizabilty of the Civilization 2 scenario has ensured its survival to today, 9 years after its initial release. It is the raison-de-etre of the entire community here. Whether it be a remakes of classics such as Red Front, or newer series such as Dictator or Blitzkreig, scenarios have been the driving force in Civ2 for most of its existence. I'm not one to exaggarate or sing praises, but in the Civ2 scenario it is possible to simulate any spectrum of human activity: be it every conceivable period in history from the Romans to WW2, outer space, under the sea, even building railroads, planting vineyards, or corporate take-overs. This is the sole faucet of Civ2 which still has life in it; long term projects are scheaduled to last all the way into next year, the 10th anniversary of the day Sid Meier unleashed Civilization on the world.

- But why does this mean that FreeCiv will not be widespread? It may not neccessarily come to that, provided it is released with all the scenario creation capabilities of Civ2 MGE and TOT. The community is a close knit one. At best we can hope for a hundred and at worse 30-40. The reason it sticks together has been made clear: scenarios. Already, just moving form MGE to TOT has caused much polarization. Just head over to one of the debates over at CDG. The main point the ones in defence of MGE have made is that splitting our community even for an edition of Civ with better scenario capabilites is not good; I'm sure they'll be tickled when you propose a version with NO scenario capabilites at all.


If and when FreeCiv comes out with scenario capabilites superior or even equal to what we've got now, I'd gladly switch. But, as for now, the majority of the Civvers here like me will stick to either MGE or TOT.

[If I say that my somewhat extravagant imagination yielded simultaneous pictures of an octopus, a dragon, and a human caricature, I shall not be unfaithful to the spirit of the thing. A pulpy, tentacled head surmounted a grotesque and scaly body with rudimentary wings... It represented a monster of vaguely anthropoid outline, but with an octopus-like head whose face was a mass of feelers, a scaly, rubbery-looking body, prodigious claws on hind and fore feet, and long, narrow wings behind. This thing, which seemed instinct with a fearsome and unnatural malignancy, was of a somewhat bloated corpulence... St Leo was here.]

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by typhoon
Much as CapTVK is to be lauded for the work he put into Freeciv, I'm afraid that it's actual use will be sadly limited, just as the use of other freeware variants of Civ such as CivEvo were be limited. Reasons are as follows:

*snip*

If and when FreeCiv comes out with scenario capabilites superior or even equal to what we've got now, I'd gladly switch. But, as for now, the majority of the Civvers here like me will stick to either MGE or TOT.

Freeciv has got a lot more flexibility of late, and scenario-abilities has been discussed and hopefully someone will start to work on it soon. However the devs have a lot of other stuff they work on also. I think it's important to remember that the freeciv devs code on freeciv for fun and in their past-time, just as the civ2 modders do with their scenarios. So making freeciv more popular than civ2, civ3, ... isn't neccessarily their prime objective. Freeciv also has had a rather different focus for a long time, namely multiplayer, in which regard I think it surpassed most other civ-games in functionality.

Originally posted by typhoon
[Vast, Polyphemus-like, and loathsome, it darted like a stupendous monster of nightmares to the monolith, about which it flung its gigantic scaly arms, the while it bowed its hideous head and gave vent to certain measured sounds.... Once I sought out a celebrated ethnologist, and amused him with peculiar questions regarding the ancient Philistine legend of Dagon, the Fish-God; but soon perceiving that he was hopelessly conventional, I did not press my inquiries. St Leo was here.]

I do admit I got a bit hot-headed in that discussion, and for that I apologize. However, the other main participant also admitted to this, and we squared up at the end. My only concern was to inform about the GPL so that we did not end up with everyone being scared away from it because it was portrayed in what I construed as an unfair light.

For being offensive, I think that although we probably was a bit harsher with each other than we should, we actually were quite civil in that discussion. I find your attacks on me in this thread to be far more uncalled for and rude.

If you insist on continuing this, I would prefer it if you PM me instead as this is off topic for this thread.

[typhoon]

Freeciv has got a lot more flexibility of late, and scenario-abilities has been discussed and hopefully someone will start to work on it soon.

I'm not holding my breath till then.

However the devs have a lot of other stuff they work on also. I think it's important to remember that the freeciv devs code on freeciv for fun and in their past-time, just as the civ2 modders do with their scenarios. So making freeciv more popular than civ2, civ3, ... isn't neccessarily their prime objective.

While you're at it, here are a few suggestions. Although FreeCiv is understandably geared towards functionality, the GUI is simply horrible. It is at best ulitarian and at worst awkward and difficult to use compared to MGE/TOT. Of course, being fan-developed, it would be definitely less polished than a retail product. However, C-evo is also freeware and despite it being slightly different from the standard interface that Civ2 and FreeCiv utilize, I found it easier to navigate with and play on. Which is a shame really as FreeCiv offers so much more.

Freeciv also has had a rather different focus for a long time, namely multiplayer, in which regard I think it surpassed most other civ-games in functionality.

Good luck finding players then, Old Bean. As pointed out earlier, most Civ2 multiplayer played today are in reality PBEM games of scenarios, taking place over long durations of time. Vanilla Civ is hardly played anymore. Just like in Single Player, scenarios are just more appealing to players.

If and when people do want to play vanilla Civ games online in the manner similar to that of FreeCiv, they turn to a civ-game which I think surpasses both MGE and FreeCiv. It's called 'Play The World.'

I do admit I got a bit hot-headed in that discussion, and for that I apologize. However, the other main participant also admitted to this, and we squared up at the end. My only concern was to inform about the GPL so that we did not end up with everyone being scared away from it because it was portrayed in what I construed as an unfair light.

To be frank I share similar views. As of now all material on this board is unliscensed and open to use by anyone who so wishes. Although you may accuse this system of being more open to plagarism than GPL liscenced material, it is extremely rare that abuse happens. This is due mostly to the fact that to the non Civ-gamer most of the stuff here will appear as dated or useless junk (of course, we know otherwise), and he/she will therefore not go through the trouble of looting the place.

The other reason I am proud to say is the high moral standards of the members of the Civ2 scenario community. Usually we will ask for the permission of the author before using his material, be it as reference or as a part of a project. The only time I have ever heard of a case where this was not done was over at CDG (*cough*barthi*cough*) in which case it was quickly spotted and the person in question abandoned the project in order to respect the wishes of the author.

As a community we are thus able to police ourselves quite effectively, liscense or no. What kind of deterrent do we have against offenders? At the risk of repeating myself for the 100th time, this is a very close knit bunch. With such a limitted 'market', repeated warnings and boycotts become highly effective. Failing that, banning offenders from the forums works, in which case the perpetrator in question is pretty much on his own. This has happened before on other Civ sites I believe.

The main objection I believe that some had to bringing their work under GPL was the appearance that it would 'commercialise' thier efforts and allow free distribution, with or without author's consent. While it is technically legal to do so here since we have no liscence covering our work, we do have unwritten rules regarding use of other's material (e.g. crediting the author. etc.)

The objection is thus not a legal one but moral; GPL allows people to claim other's work as their own. You have mentioned earlier that even if they do that, they have nothing to gain since under GPL they cannot sell it for personal profit. However, the fact that it is stolen nevertheless remains quite repugnant among some here.

Ramming it down our throats also goes quite a long way in creating resistance as well.

For being offensive, I think that although we probably was a bit harsher with each other than we should, we actually were quite civil in that discussion. I find your attacks on me in this thread to be far more uncalled for and rude.

If you have felt so, I am sorry and sincerely apologise.

[This was a squat, plain temple of basalt blocks without a single carving, and containing only a vacant onyx pedestal.... It has been built in imitation of certain temples depicted in the vaults of Zin, to house a very terrible black toad-idol found in the red-litten world and called Tsathoggua in the Yothic manuscripts. It had been a potent and widely worshipped god, and after its adoption by the people of K’n-yan had lent its name to the city which was later to become dominant in that region. Yothic legend said that it had come from a mysterious inner realm beneath the red-litten world—a black realm of peculiar-sensed beings which had no light at all, but which had had great civilisations and mighty gods before ever the reptilian quadrupeds of Yoth had come into being. St Leo was here.]

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by typhoon
While you're at it, here are a few suggestions. Although FreeCiv is understandably geared towards functionality, the GUI is simply horrible. It is at best ulitarian and at worst awkward and difficult to use compared to MGE/TOT. Of course, being fan-developed, it would be definitely less polished than a retail product. However, C-evo is also freeware and despite it being slightly different from the standard interface that Civ2 and FreeCiv utilize, I found it easier to navigate with and play on. Which is a shame really as FreeCiv offers so much more.

I'm working on making that happen I also find it to be to complex and confusing in some aspects. I also would like to use more gfx in the interface, like icons and the like instead of or in addition to text. There are also some work going on to make a fullscreen client that would not use a widget set like gtk2, but rather gfx made spesifically for it.

Originally posted by typhoon
Good luck finding players then, Old Bean. As pointed out earlier, most Civ2 multiplayer played today are in reality PBEM games of scenarios, taking place over long durations of time. Vanilla Civ is hardly played anymore. Just like in Single Player, scenarios are just more appealing to players.

Freeciv does have a certain multiplayer community already. I believe there are games running more or less every day on the pubserver. However when looking at bug-reports most come from people playing single-player, so the mp community might not be that large.

Originally posted by typhoon
To be frank I share similar views. As of now all material on this board is unliscensed and open to use by anyone who so wishes. Although you may accuse this system of being more open to plagarism than GPL liscenced material, it is extremely rare that abuse happens. This is due mostly to the fact that to the non Civ-gamer most of the stuff here will appear as dated or useless junk (of course, we know otherwise), and he/she will therefore not go through the trouble of looting the place.

I was under the impression that it's released under "All rights reserved" if one doesn't spesify a license, but IANAL.

Originally posted by typhoon
The main objection I believe that some had to bringing their work under GPL was the appearance that it would 'commercialise' thier efforts and allow free distribution, with or without author's consent. While it is technically legal to do so here since we have no liscence covering our work, we do have unwritten rules regarding use of other's material (e.g. crediting the author. etc.)

The objection is thus not a legal one but moral; GPL allows people to claim other's work as their own. You have mentioned earlier that even if they do that, they have nothing to gain since under GPL they cannot sell it for personal profit. However, the fact that it is stolen nevertheless remains quite repugnant among some here.

The GPL license was made with source code in mind, so I agree that it is not 100% ideal for art. The problem Open Source Software devs faces is that for art that is bundled with the source code it need to be compatible with the source code license. As far as I know fx the Creative Commons license is not compatible with the GPL license. Therefore most use GPL on the art also because it does give quite decent protection. I wouldn't mind if the FSF came with a spesific art license though that was compat. with the GPL.

Originally posted by typhoon
Ramming it down our throats also goes quite a long way in creating resistance as well.

Actually my intention was the exact oposite. I wanted to make clear how the GPL license worked so no one ended up releasing stuff under a license that they didn't fully understand the implications of. Unfortunately the discussion ended up in a way that this probably didn't become very clear.